19th Hussars (The Elephant Family). - Page 5 - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

GriffMJ · #61 08-10-14, 06:27 AM

Tony

Are you rubbing your chin on this one?

Frank Kelley · #62 08-10-14, 06:35 AM

Well, I must admit that I've never seen another like it, when I saw the first photograph, I just thought yes, okay another one, but, the lugs are a lot longer than expected and with a silver badge of this period, you would expect it to have silver lugs and not copper ones, I would also have expected it to look rather different on the reverse too.

3748 Hussar · #63 08-10-14, 07:02 AM

Griff
I suppose you could call it rubbing my chin

Are you rubbing your chin on this one?[/QUOTE]

Frank Kelley · #64 08-10-14, 07:08 AM

Copy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike

Here's my copy of the first type.

Noticed the same marks on the reverse of the animal's upper back on this badge as Malc's badge - out of the same die I think. wonder who is making these things?

GriffMJ · #65 08-10-14, 07:09 AM

Nice one with a slider on Bosleys new site.

Frank Kelley · #66 08-10-14, 07:45 AM

Morning Griff,
My own thoughts on these badges are that they were worn well beyond 1902, if they are wrong, what did the regiment actually wear?

Regards Frank

GriffMJ · #67 08-10-14, 07:59 AM

Frank

The 19H is another of my favourites ... I have been trying to collect images for them that can be dated but very few exist where a badge can be seen. The badges that I would obviously trust are the "correctly" HMd silver officers badges ..... and from those .... work out the dates and then find the ORs that match them. We know the double scroll exists... because we have the Officers badge to prove that.... I cant remember the HM date on it..... but I think we do know that it was not in service for long before it changed to the single scroll. The amount of Other Ranks badges made for the double scroll must have been in the low numbers .... because we just dont see them. I think there are three or four Other Ranks variants for the double scroll that all claim to be real. Wilkinson's book shows one particular type that is very stylized..... but is it genuine?

These images are close to the 2nd Boer War..... frustrating though as the Officers and ORs are wearing the sewn on Nelly.... not the cap badge :-

Frank Kelley · #68 08-10-14, 08:10 AM

Hello Griff,
I've yet to see any proof that the double scrolled badge was worn, why are there no photographs and why are there so few badges and yet of those that exist, they all appear to be different in the way they are made.
Regards Frank

Quote:

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Frank

The 19H is another of my favourites ... I have been trying to collect images for them that can be dated but very few exist where a badge can be seen. The badges that I would obviously trust are the "correctly" HMd silver officers badges ..... and from those .... work out the dates and then find the ORs that match them. We know the double scroll exists... because we have the Officers badge to prove that.... I cant remember the HM date on it..... but I think we do know that it was not in service for long before it changed to the single scroll. The amount of Other Ranks badges made for the double scroll must have been in the low numbers .... because we just dont see them. I think there are three or four Other Ranks variants for the double scroll that all claim to be real. Wilkinson's book shows one particular type that is very stylized..... but is it genuine?

Alan O · #69 08-10-14, 08:11 AM

The medal ribbons are WW1 so the photo is after 1919. It shows the FSH pagri badge worn just before amalgamation.

GriffMJ · #70 08-10-14, 08:15 AM

Frank

I thinks its safe to assume that if the Officers double scroll was struck.... then a run of Other Ranks badges were also struck. What the Regiment did with them remains to be found out...

GriffMJ · #71 08-10-14, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan O

The meddal ribbons are WW1 so the photo is after 1919.

Ah yes... I remember now... thanks Alan.

Alan O · #72 08-10-14, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Frank

I thinks its safe to assume that if the Officers double scroll was struck.... then a run of Other Ranks badges were also struck. What the Regiment did with them remains to be found out...

I remain unconvinced that the ORs badges were struck in any volume or at all. Interstingly the NAM states that the single scroll badge was the regts' cap badge from 1898 to 1922.

http://www.nam.ac.uk/research/famous...alexandras-own

GriffMJ · #73 08-10-14, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan O

I remain unconvinced that the ORs badges were struck in any volume or at all. Interestingly the NAM states that the single scroll badge was the regts' cap badge from 1898 to 1922.

http://www.nam.ac.uk/research/famous...alexandras-own

Alan

That could very well be the case... but that HMd double scroll would have been worn by the Officers for a period of time.... even if the ORs didnt have it in white metal?

Frank Kelley · #74 08-10-14, 09:36 AM

I completely agree, where are they, why are there so few double scroll badges and of these, why are they all different?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan O

I remain unconvinced that the ORs badges were struck in any volume or at all. Interstingly the NAM states that the single scroll badge was the regts' cap badge from 1898 to 1922.

http://www.nam.ac.uk/research/famous...alexandras-own

Alan O · #75 08-10-14, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan O

The meddal ribbons are WW1 so the photo is after 1919.

The Regt returned to India post war where they were on Garrison duties.

It appears from your photo that they were wearing the scroll-less elephant pagri badges on their FSH.

http://www.nam.ac.uk/online-collecti...c=1977-02-32-2

I have yet to see any photo of the regt in WW1 wearing anything other than the cap/collar badge in their caps in France. So whenever the single scroll elephant ceased to be used (and I would argue that it was more likely to have been in 1914 when the regt left India and not 1904 as some badge collecting books suggest), it did not seem to be in use in WW1 on khaki caps.

It is worth remembering that having disbanded a number of cavalry regts in 1922 and transferred the manpower elsewhere, the War Office soon made an about face and reconstituted the disbanded regts as the 4th (therefore the junior) sqns of other regts. There then went about another round of transfers as some of the disbanded regts former soldiers then transferred into those reconstituted Sqns. In the 19th Hussars case they became part of the 15th/19th. What badge they wore in 1922 is unclear but it may well have been the smaller 19th Hussars cap/collar badge. In the event all of the newly merged regts adopted new regtl badge designs over the next 5-10 years and the old designs were swept away.