British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > General Topics.

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 15-01-13, 05:52 AM
hagwalther's Avatar
hagwalther hagwalther is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,939
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancer 17 View Post
Hi Chrs

This is an extention of a discussion that I have been having with Griff.

JUst proir tothe QRL amalgamation in 1993 I obtained a last set of badges from the regt, being a cap Motto, 2 collar Mottos and shoulder titles. The cap Motto is marked JR Gaunt London Ltd all in upper case on the slider. This set has been kept seperate in a small plastic bag.

I also obtained a first QRL set from the regt following amalgamation. The cap Motto has a very small Firmin London mark on the slider and has a red shadow and came with a pair of collars and QRL shoulder titles. This set has been kept seperate as per the above set.

I also have an AA, RJ Gaunt, London Motto that has lugs with the name in small lettering on the back of the OR GLORY scroll.

I also have a single AA collar Motto that is marked LBB, so it looks that there are marked collar Mottos to go with their Cap Motto.

Regards

Phil.
Hi Phil,

Do you have the original packaging that the JR Gaunt London Ltd marked Motto badge came in?

Regards

Chris
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 15-01-13, 07:44 AM
btns's Avatar
btns btns is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,958
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rexb View Post
Yes.

The name 'Toye, Kenning & Spencer' indicates the merger of three separate firms. Some time after WW2, Kenning merged with Spencer, becoming George Kenning & Spencer Ltd. I don't have the date, but they were listed under this name in Kelly's Post Office London Directory 1962. This edition showed Toye & Co. also. The next edition, 1963, gave Toye, Kenning & Spencer.

Other well-known firms that became part of TK&S include Benton & Johnson and Edward Stillwell & Son, as well as Postons and LB&BC. Any others?

Rex
From a TKS company brochure on the web:
...
George Kenning was an enterprising young man, who in 1860 was employed by Edward Stillwell & Sons. He had the temerity to ask for a rise and was promptly sacked. He set up his own firm mainly concerned with uniform trimmings and regalia.
...
Toye had not been working in a vacuum unaffected by competition. There were other firms competing for the same markets, but it was not until 1956 that the purely family aspect of the business altered. The firm of George Kenning & Spencer decided they could not continue in business and offered their shares to Toyes. The names of Kenning and Spencer were bywords in the business world in which Toye operated.

...
In 1957 Edward Stillwell & Sons went into voluntary liquidation and Toye & Co. took over the remaining staff and plant. Mr Clarence Stillwell who was in control at the time had lost both sons in the war and there was no one left to carry on the business.
...
Despite the absorption of George, Kenning and Spencer into the company many years previous, the title of Toye, Kenning and Spencer to represent all components of the firm only came to being in January 1962.
...
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 15-01-13, 11:27 AM
GriffMJ's Avatar
GriffMJ GriffMJ is offline
LYPAO Boff
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Caerlŷr, yn Lloegr.
Posts: 6,445
Default

Chris

Is the "J.R.GAUNT LONDON LTD" marked Motto then a Firmin production post the acquisition of Gaunt (and its dies) ..... going on what you have said in post #24

If it is are they showing deference to Gaunt by keeping their makers mark because of the die used (adding "LTD" as a difference)?
__________________
Cofion gorau
Gruffydd M-J
www.paoyeomanry.org.uk

"A Yeoman from the Stalwart Rural Cavalry"
Lechyd da pob Cymro
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 15-01-13, 06:24 PM
rexb rexb is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 82
Default

In a talk by Keith Riddle, London Badge & Button Company, given on 18 October 1997, to the Birmingham Branch of The British Button Society, he said that he (i.e., LB&BC) had bought "Gaunt's stock" [for a fraction of its value; he gave the figures]. He did not give the date of purchase, nor say how he disposed of it. Does anyone know more of this? If not, I will ask him, when I get a chance.

Rex
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 15-01-13, 07:25 PM
hagwalther's Avatar
hagwalther hagwalther is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,939
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GriffMJ View Post
Chris

Is the "J.R.GAUNT LONDON LTD" marked Motto then a Firmin production post the acquisition of Gaunt (and its dies) ..... going on what you have said in post #24

If it is are they showing deference to Gaunt by keeping their makers mark because of the die used (adding "LTD" as a difference)?
Hi Griff,

The first thing youn need to realise is that there are two different J.R.GAUNT LONDON LTD markings - see earlier posting.

One is a quite genuine Gaunt mark and has been found on badges attached to sealed pattern cards. An example of such can be found in the Imperial War Museum. This version of the mark though is very scarce.

The second marking comes with a full stop following the 'LTD'. There are other striking differences too but I'll keep them to myself for now. The full stop is not always easy to see but is there if you look for it. This mark is common and found on the TAVR III units that were disbanded before the A/A badge was officially authorised for them. An example is Alan's post re: Dorset Territorials example on eBay.

However, this mark is also found on A/A badges for units that were still in service in the 1990's - again, quite commonly found as per your Motto example. As asked, if any packaging exists for this badge I would like to see it.

I believe that the later Gaunt London Ltd marks (with full stop) was used by Firmin. My reason for this is in the book with an example to back up my theory.

Regards

Chris
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 15-01-13, 07:26 PM
hagwalther's Avatar
hagwalther hagwalther is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,939
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rexb View Post
In a talk by Keith Riddle, London Badge & Button Company, given on 18 October 1997, to the Birmingham Branch of The British Button Society, he said that he (i.e., LB&BC) had bought "Gaunt's stock" [for a fraction of its value; he gave the figures]. He did not give the date of purchase, nor say how he disposed of it. Does anyone know more of this? If not, I will ask him, when I get a chance.

Rex
Hi Rex,

This is very interesting - if you find out any more info I would like to hear of it.

Regards

Chris
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 15-01-13, 08:32 PM
GriffMJ's Avatar
GriffMJ GriffMJ is offline
LYPAO Boff
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Caerlŷr, yn Lloegr.
Posts: 6,445
Default

Chris

Thanks for that, below is the Dorset and the Dodgy Motto together and you can clearly see the difference!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg GauntMarkedLTDSliders.jpg (38.9 KB, 21 views)
__________________
Cofion gorau
Gruffydd M-J
www.paoyeomanry.org.uk

"A Yeoman from the Stalwart Rural Cavalry"
Lechyd da pob Cymro

Last edited by GriffMJ; 15-01-13 at 09:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 15-01-13, 08:43 PM
hagwalther's Avatar
hagwalther hagwalther is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,939
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GriffMJ View Post
Chris

Thanks for that, below is the Dorset and the Dodgy Motto together and you can clearly see the difference!

I did have that Motto in my suspect section because of the "back" image of the badge funnily enough.... so this doubles up the negatives on it?
Hi Griff,

Not really.

If the badge was made during the era of service then it will be OK.

Other examples are The King’s Own Royal Border Regiment and The Queen’s Lancashire Regiment. I'm sure that there will be many more too.

Regards

Chris
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 15-01-13, 08:47 PM
GriffMJ's Avatar
GriffMJ GriffMJ is offline
LYPAO Boff
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Caerlŷr, yn Lloegr.
Posts: 6,445
Default

Chris

So, its a good mark on the Motto? Clear as mud!?

Phil has the packet for the London Ltd Motto I believe, he is busy taking some photos...
__________________
Cofion gorau
Gruffydd M-J
www.paoyeomanry.org.uk

"A Yeoman from the Stalwart Rural Cavalry"
Lechyd da pob Cymro
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 15-01-13, 08:51 PM
hagwalther's Avatar
hagwalther hagwalther is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,939
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GriffMJ View Post
Chris

So, its a good mark on the Motto? Clear as mud!?
Hi Griff,

I would say that the badge is good although it may have been made be Firmin. When you get a copy of the book you can check out what I have written.

Of course, I may well be wrong but I'll leave that for yourself and others to decide.

Regards

Chris
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 15-01-13, 08:55 PM
GriffMJ's Avatar
GriffMJ GriffMJ is offline
LYPAO Boff
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Caerlŷr, yn Lloegr.
Posts: 6,445
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hagwalther View Post
Hi Griff,

I would say that the badge is good although it may have been made be Firmin. When you get a copy of the book you can check out what I have written.

Of course, I may well be wrong but I'll leave that for yourself and others to decide.

Regards

Chris
Chris ......have you got a copy I can buy now?
__________________
Cofion gorau
Gruffydd M-J
www.paoyeomanry.org.uk

"A Yeoman from the Stalwart Rural Cavalry"
Lechyd da pob Cymro
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 15-01-13, 08:57 PM
hagwalther's Avatar
hagwalther hagwalther is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,939
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GriffMJ View Post
Chris ......have you got a copy I can buy now?
Hi Griff,

Advance copies have been sent out - should get to recipients this or next week.

Main shipment believed to be on the high seas on its way to me.

see:

www.aacapbadges.com

All details with example pages there.

Regards

Chris
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 15-01-13, 09:08 PM
GriffMJ's Avatar
GriffMJ GriffMJ is offline
LYPAO Boff
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Caerlŷr, yn Lloegr.
Posts: 6,445
Default

Just read the Chapter 6 , 6.5 "example" page on your webby.... all has become clear now
__________________
Cofion gorau
Gruffydd M-J
www.paoyeomanry.org.uk

"A Yeoman from the Stalwart Rural Cavalry"
Lechyd da pob Cymro
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 16-01-13, 06:04 AM
Lancer 17 Lancer 17 is offline
Member 2010-21- Rest in Peace
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Melbourne Australia.
Posts: 1,459
Smile

Hi Chris & Griff

Sorry Phil has been asleep !

1 No Chris I dont have any packaging, it would just have come in an envelope from the regt, had there been any packaging I would have kept it.

2 There is no dot after Ltd

3 I also have an AA Motto marked J. R. Gaunt B'ham with no dot after B'ham.

Griff I think that I have sorted the photo problem out and if so l will send you copies of all the AA Mottos for your refference.

Regards

Phil.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 16-01-13, 09:17 AM
GriffMJ's Avatar
GriffMJ GriffMJ is offline
LYPAO Boff
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Caerlŷr, yn Lloegr.
Posts: 6,445
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancer 17 View Post
Hi Chris & Griff

Sorry Phil has been asleep !

1 No Chris I dont have any packaging, it would just have come in an envelope from the regt, had there been any packaging I would have kept it.

2 There is no dot after Ltd

3 I also have an AA Motto marked J. R. Gaunt B'ham with no dot after B'ham.

Griff I think that I have sorted the photo problem out and if so l will send you copies of all the AA Mottos for your refference.

Regards

Phil.

Thank you Phil.
__________________
Cofion gorau
Gruffydd M-J
www.paoyeomanry.org.uk

"A Yeoman from the Stalwart Rural Cavalry"
Lechyd da pob Cymro
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:39 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.