London Badge and Button Co Ltd

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Hi Marc,

Makes sense:

The company (LB&BC) became part of the Toye Group of companies in January 2000 being part of Poston Products Limited...

Regards

Chris

Both

I have an "Old Contemptibles 1914" button hole badge made by Toyes & Co..... so I am guessing this is the same "Toyes" as the above?

[rexb]

Yes.

The name 'Toye, Kenning & Spencer' indicates the merger of three separate firms. Some time after WW2, Kenning merged with Spencer, becoming George Kenning & Spencer Ltd. I don't have the date, but they were listed under this name in Kelly's Post Office London Directory 1962. This edition showed Toye & Co. also. The next edition, 1963, gave Toye, Kenning & Spencer.

Other well-known firms that became part of TK&S include Benton & Johnson and Edward Stillwell & Son, as well as Postons and LB&BC. Any others?

Rex

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by rexb

Yes.

The name 'Toye, Kenning & Spencer' indicates the merger of three separate firms. Some time after WW2, Kenning merged with Spencer, becoming George Kenning & Spencer Ltd. I don't have the date, but they were listed under this name in Kelly's Post Office London Directory 1962. This edition showed Toye & Co. also. The next edition, 1963, gave Toye, Kenning & Spencer.

Other well-known firms that became part of TK&S include Benton & Johnson and Edward Stillwell & Son, as well as Postons and LB&BC. Any others?

Rex

Hi Rex,

...In 1956 the firm George Kenning & Spencer closed for business and offered all the company shares to Toye giving the company the name of Toye, Kenning & Spencer that we know today and which was formalised in 1962...

Regards

Chris

[rexb]

Thanks, Chris; pleased to have that information.

Rex

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by rexb

It is correct that London Badge & Button Company was formed on 10 December 1973. The company was started by Mr Keith Riddle, who had worked for Gaunts. LB&BC was an entirely new company, not bought off the shelf. I have this information from Keith Riddle himself.

When Keith Riddle retired, the company was bought by some of the LB&BC managers. They sold the company to Poston Products Ltd., a firm that was incorporated on 3 December 1940. The latter company was in financial difficulties, but wished to continue trading. After the purchase, Poston Products and LB&BC exchanged identities, on 28 January 2000.

I have just rechecked the Companies House website. The information about the dates of incorporation and exchange of identities is still given there.

Rex

All of which makes this badge:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/British-Ar...item2ec554c83f

decidedly wonky!

[GriffMJ]

Alan (& Chris)

Is the makers mark "J.R.GAUNT LONDON LTD" a valid one? I have an AA motto with this mark on it.... and I see that Alan questions the badge in his link above (or have I got the wrong end of the stick)? I see that the Gaunt makers mark section does contain this mark on QEII badges.

[Alan O]

oops new glasses needed. However I am not sure the London Ltd is a 1987-8 badge either. I am sure all will be revealed in Hagwalther's book.

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by Alan O

oops new glasses needed. However I am not sure the London Ltd is a 1987-8 badge either. I am sure all will be revealed in Hagwalther's book.

Alan

I do question the dates you give above...as you say.... didn't Gaunt move from London to Birmingham lock stock and barrel in the late 1960s? It seems odd that they would put that mark on it if it was produced in B'HAM?

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Alan (& Chris)

Is the makers mark "J.R.GAUNT LONDON LTD" a valid one? I have an AA motto with this mark on it.... and I see that Alan questions the badge in his link above (or have I got the wrong end of the stick)? I see that the Gaunt makers mark section does contain this mark on QEII badges.

Hi Griff,

Some is; some ain't.

There is a subtle difference between the two (yes, two) Gaunt London Ltd marks. In fact, there are a couple of differences.

As Alan says - all in the book of which advance copies have been sent out.

The badge Alan has mentioned was probably made by Firmin (yes, Firmin in the 1990's).

That should give a few something to think about...

Regards

Chris

[rexb]

I don't think Gaunts made much in London. They took over Thurkle, the Soho, London sword cutler in 1899, and were listed at these premises in directories up to 1905. I would guess they continued the business there, for a while at least. After that, I don't think any of their London premises were large enough for manufacturing; they were sales offices. (Happy to be proved wrong.)

Keith Riddle went to work for Gaunts in 1956. He rose quickly, on the management side. In two talks he has given to The British Button Society, and in conversations I have had with him, he has recounted the boardroom battle that ensued when someone proposed marking their products with Birmingham, instead of London. Eventually, the proposer of the suggestion persuaded enough people for the suggestion to be adopted. The resistance came from people who thought that a London mark had more marketing clout than a Birmingham one. KR relates that the proposer claimed that Gaunts had never made a button in London. I don't know whether this is correct, or if badges were mentioned. Nor do I know exactly when Gaunts recommenced putting 'Birmingham' on manufactures, instead of 'London', but think it must have been in the 1960s. [Prior to taking over Thurkle, and thus acquiring a London address, they had used a Birmingham mark, of course.]

Rex

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by rexb

I don't think Gaunts made much in London. They took over Thurkle, the Soho, London sword cutler in 1899, and were listed at these premises in directories up to 1905. I would guess they continued the business there, for a while at least. After that, I don't think any of their London premises were large enough for manufacturing; they were sales offices. (Happy to be proved wrong.)

Keith Riddle went to work for Gaunts in 1956. He rose quickly, on the management side. In two talks he has given to The British Button Society, and in conversations I have had with him, he has recounted the boardroom battle that ensued when someone proposed marking their products with Birmingham, instead of London. Eventually, the proposer of the suggestion persuaded enough people for the suggestion to be adopted. The resistance came from people who thought that a London mark had more marketing clout than a Birmingham one. KR relates that the proposer claimed that Gaunts had never made a button in London. I don't know whether this is correct, or if badges were mentioned. Nor do I know exactly when Gaunts recommenced putting 'Birmingham' on manufactures, instead of 'London', but think it must have been in the 1960s. [Prior to taking over Thurkle, and thus acquiring a London address, they had used a Birmingham mark, of course.]

Rex

Thanks Rex,

Very interesting. Looking at official doco and sealed pattern cards with badges with this mark the earliest usage that I can come up with for Gaunt B'HAM is 1966.

Regards

Chris

[rexb]

Sorry, missed something out. Gaunts were listed in Kelly's London directories up to the 1975 edition (at 1/8 Bateman Buildings, Soho Square, London, for the last few years). They were not shown in the 1976 edition, but reappeared in the 1977, at 42 King Street, Covent Garden, London. They were listed in Kelly's London 1978-1981 editions, but no London address was given, only the Birmingham one.

Rex

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Hi Griff,

Some is; some ain't.

There is a subtle difference between the two (yes, two) Gaunt London Ltd marks. In fact, there are a couple of differences.

As Alan says - all in the book of which advance copies have been sent out.

The badge Alan has mentioned was probably made by Firmin (yes, Firmin in the 1990's).

That should give a few something to think about...

Regards

Chris

Hi Chris

I have been told that the last motto issue to the 17th/21st Lancers was a Gaunt marked AA Motto (see below)..... I assume that this was in the late 1980s. The slider has the "LONDON LTD" mark?

BTW have you got a spare book I can buy today?

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Hi Chris

I have been told that the last motto issue to the 17th/21st Lancers was a Gaunt marked AA Motto (see below)..... I assume that this was in the late 1980s. The slider has the "LONDON LTD" mark?

Yes, sounds OK - however, I haven't told you the full story...

Could the badge have come from 1991 onwards?

Regards

Chris

[Lancer 17]

Hi Chrs

This is an extention of a discussion that I have been having with Griff.

JUst proir tothe QRL amalgamation in 1993 I obtained a last set of badges from the regt, being a cap Motto, 2 collar Mottos and shoulder titles. The cap Motto is marked JR Gaunt London Ltd all in upper case on the slider. This set has been kept seperate in a small plastic bag.

I also obtained a first QRL set from the regt following amalgamation. The cap Motto has a very small Firmin London mark on the slider and has a red shadow and came with a pair of collars and QRL shoulder titles. This set has been kept seperate as per the above set.

I also have an AA, RJ Gaunt, London Motto that has lugs with the name in small lettering on the back of the OR GLORY scroll.

I also have a single AA collar Motto that is marked LBB, so it looks that there are marked collar Mottos to go with their Cap Motto.

Regards

Phil.