Tyneside Scottish

[tynesideirish]

Just shows that whatever was supposed to be worn where and what was doesn't always correspond to the Orders.

Reference the rarer cloth shoulder title to the 20th Bn, Northumberland Fusiliers (1st Tyneside Scottish). The coloured lettering indicated the battalion 21st were yellow; 22nd were black and 23rd were light blue.

However many years ago Graham Stewart interviewed an old 'B' Coy, 22nd Bn man who served in 1918 and he clearly remembered the titles and when he asked was it black embroided lettering, he was quite certain his was 'yellow' lettering. By this time two battalion's had been disbanded (20th & 21st) so one wonders if surplus cloth titles were being worn as 'company' indicators rather than battalion.

[jubilationtcornpone]

Can anyone tell me if the Tyneside Scottish badge, K & K # 1137, was produced in brass as well as in white metal? I have one that I believe is brass. It certainly isn't WM. Until recently I thought that it could be copper until I looked more carefully and did a little rubbing. Could it be a 1916 economy version?

Don

[Alan O]

Don,

I am sorry to say that there were only wm ones. Fakes have been made in brass however and pop up on ebay from the notorious restrike sellers.

There was certainly no 'economy' version. The only Scottish regt economy version was for the Royal Scots as it was bi-metal.

Alan

[jubilationtcornpone]

Alan,

Thanks for your reply, even if it wasn't what I wanted to hear. I purchased this badge a little over a year ago at a military show. It was the only British badge I saw in the entire show. You might think that the odds of it being authentic would be a little better. Oh well, lesson learned. Thanks again.

Don

[jubilationtcornpone]

Thanks to Voltigeur's reply to a query about an Argyll capbadge I found this:

http://www.geocities.com/scotlandswarriors/liver/C3.jpg

This is my badge. Good site! I guess I'll keep collecting after all!

Don

[mgc]

I am of the humble opinion that this brass badge is a fake. I have identical badges in both white metal and brass. They are both made of stout substantial metal that is tough to bend. The white metal badge even seems to be silver plated, at least it tarnishes like it. For that reason I always considered them to be genuine. BUT, the face, arms and portcullis are incorrect unfortunately. Not what I wanted to hear either.
As they say; bummer dude!
PS: If someone has information to the contrary, I'd love to hear it. 8^)
PSS: There is also a bi-metal Liverpool Scottish shown on this site which has been discussed as fake several times by knowledgeable members of this forum.

[jubilationtcornpone]

I have been collecting cap badges now for about 32 years. At first I thought I would just get a few of the units I was interested in. Then I made the mistake of getting hooked and have been ever since. I never thought it would reach the point, which it seems to have, that it is necessary to become an expert on every unit, and on each and every badge worn, or risk being played for a sucker. This is, of course, impossible. I should remember that anyone can pose as an expert on any subject and put it on the internet, for whatever reason. I do believe that the members of this forum are, by and large, interested in accuracy and authenticity. The only people who could know what badges were worn by the Tyneside Scottish during WWI are all gone. Any records they may have left are not where they are easily accessible by me. The opinions of members of this forum are greatly appreciated. But, I cannot take you with me to shows. It would seem that we are all involved in a crap shoot, doing the best we can and hoping for the best. I do think that my odds are slowly improving.

So, is this a good badge, or a clunker? My jury is still out, though I am leaning toward clunker.

Now, a question. I notice that many of the badges I own are curved, as if to fit on a hat. This badge is flat. Bad sign, or of no real significance?

Don

[mgc]

I don't feel that flat or curved has anything to do with authenticity of a badge. Some soldiers may have bent their badges to better fit their caps and I have seen this on occasion but this could just as easily be done with a fake or re-strike.
Sorry about my response above, just my opinion on this badge of course but I have seen genuine examples and they are different in the details I mentioned.
As an owner of several of these I'm in the same boat.
And, yes, unfortunately, it is a minefield!

[dubaiguy]

Don
I wouldn't use the Scotlandswarriors site as a totally accurate reference site. I take my hat off to the guy that put it together, but there are a few badges shown that appear questionable and I'm sure would provide for a good debate if posted on this site. I think Voltigeur alluded to this also.

If its the Tyneside Scottish you are interested in, I personally don't like the site's '1914 first pattern' either (just my opinion) and I've seen a few like it. I also have a pattern similar to yours in w/m with long skinny arms (forelegs) that mgc shot down in a previous thread (and I agree with him).

Have a look through the members albums - you'll see some good ones there or use the search engine on this site for Tyneside Scottish. Having some prints will help you next time you visit a show.

Hope that helps.
Mark

[Tynesider]

There are many reproduction Tyneside Scottish Badges currently doing the rounds, the most obvious fake is the 1st pattern circular badge made of brass. The original 1st pattern was only ever issued in white metal and was in service for a mere three months before being replaced by the larger more common device displaying the large cross of St.Andrew and the lion standing on two feet. It was never issued in brass, this is a later production that began to appear in the 90's. As the original 1st patterns were made locally on Tyneside and withdrawn so soon in the beginning of 1915 you have to ask the questions why there is a brass 'economy' issued, especially when the all brass economy issues only came into production in 1916! Further more the brass economies were made to shorten the production process of the bi-metal badges so why make one that is a singular metal already ?

A genuine 1st pattern TS cap badge is valued at the £120+ mark by most auction houses, a brass economy which would have to be 1000 times rarer would therefore be valued at double that !

Further clarification that the 1st pattern (and indeed all other patterns of TS badges) was never issued in brass can be found in the lack of identification in all the usual reference books, John Gaylors 'Military badge collecting' being the most widely available. Confirmation can also be found it the most excellent reference work by Colonel Denis Wood's 'the fifth fusiliers and its badges' published in 1988. Colonel Wood has been collecting badges to the NF as a whole for about 60 years and not one mention of any brass TS badges appears.

I hope this helps.

[Tynesider]

You can view an original TS Trench Mortar Battery title here:

http://www.tyneside-scottish.co.uk/tmbpage.htm

Quite possilby the rarest of all the TS shoulder titles.

[Tynesider]

I would guess thats a soldiers own modification, I have a few photographs from a private photo album all taken 1916-1917 that show a similar alteration.

[jubilationtcornpone]

Following this discussion has, for me, been very educational. I didn't take my copy of Gaylor to this show and I should have. In the future I plan to. Even a bad reference is better than a good memory. My memory isn't that good and Gaylor is not a bad reference. Tynesider I really appreciate your input.

I am of the opinion that fakes and re-strikes are nothing but theft by deception. We used to hang horse thieves in this part of the world at one time. I don't know what, if anything, can be done about these dealers in fraud today.

Don

[mgc]

I believe there was a 1916 brass version of the Black Watch badge. So it is an exception to brass economy versions replacing only bi-metal badges. Just thought it worth mentioning although there's probably fakes of these as well. :^(
Perhaps it's best to purchase these rarer badges from reputable dealers and leave the more common badge buys to the shows. At least there would be less money at risk with this method.

[Alan O]

The brass version is a WW1 Canadian badge not an economy.

Alan