Cap and Lapel Badges identification of regiment

[Smiler56]

I have a photo of my father (attached) during WWII. The cap badge I believe is for the Royal Scots Fusiliers but the lapel badges may be Highland Light Infantry?. We were always told he was in the RSF but even his army number is HLI. Does anyone know which would be correct? RSF or HLI.

[davidwyke]

Hi

Welcome to the forum!

The glengarry badge, collar badges and shoulder titles are all definitely Royal Scots Fusiliers.

Could the photo be earlier than WW2? Perhaps he originally joined the HLI and transferred to the RSF?

David

PS.... From memory, if your father joined the army after 1920(?) he would have been allocated a number from the range of numbers assigned to a particular unit. If he then transferred to another unit he would retain his original number. So, it would be quite possible for him to be serving in the RSF with what was originally a HLI number.

[Smiler56]

Photo was definitely wwII, it was taken in 1941. As far as I am aware he was in the Territorials in Glasgow first.

[davidwyke]

If he was in the Territorials in Glasgow then it was very likely one of the HLI Territorial Battalions. He probably just transferred to the RSF and took his number with him.

David

[Jeff Mc William]

Is the shoulder patch for Berlin ?

[leigh kitchen]

Won't be Berlin if photo is 1941, can't think what it is without the books.....

[davidwyke]

Hi Chaps

As Leigh says, if the photo was taken in 1941 hopefully he wasn't in Berlin .

I think the 29th Independent Infantry Brigade had a white circle as their formation sign.

Looking at the photo though, is it my imagination or does the patch seem too large for a formation sign? Could it be some kind of regimental or battalion designation??

David

[leigh kitchen]

Mike Chappells "British Battle Insignia (2) 1939-45 shows the " O" but in black, as the insignia of 15th (Scottish) Infantry Division.
The "O" (15th letter of the alphabet) was a version of the divisions WWI badge but without a central device. a new central device was added latter in the war.
The division was the duplicate division of the 52nd (Lowland) Infantry Division.
6 Bn RSF were in 15 Div during the campaign in NW Europe.

[Toby Purcell]

It's an unusual photograph as he appears to be wearing great coat buttons to fasten his SD jacket (as worn by officers on their jackets), but with the standard and correct size just on the pockets.

[leigh kitchen]

Is it not correct to wear greatcoat size buttons on the front of SD with tunic size on pockets & shoulder straps?

[REMEVMBEA1]

Originally Posted by davidwyke

Hi

Welcome to the forum!

The glengarry badge, collar badges and shoulder titles are all definitely Royal Scots Fusiliers.

Could the photo be earlier than WW2? Perhaps he originally joined the HLI and transferred to the RSF?

David

PS.... From memory, if your father joined the army after 1920(?) he would have been allocated a number from the range of numbers assigned to a particular unit. If he then transferred to another unit he would retain his original number. So, it would be quite possible for him to be serving in the RSF with what was originally a HLI number.

I served in REME for almost 15 years with a North Staffords number.
2367****

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by REMEVMBEA1

I served in REME for almost 15 years with a North Staffords number.
2367****

Not with that number you didn't, at that period you had an 'Army' (aka 'Service') number, rather than 'Regimental' number and so the number would not change whatever unit you transferred to. The numbering system evolved from being issued regimentally to being issued army wide according to a chronological system based purely on enlistment date.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

Is it not correct to wear greatcoat size buttons on the front of SD with tunic size on pockets & shoulder straps?

I think in WW1 all OR buttons on SD were of the medium (30lignes?) size. Officers wore 4-large buttons to fasten and another 4-medium for chest pockets and shoulder straps.

[grey_green_acorn]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

I think in WW1 all OR buttons on SD were of the medium (30lignes?) size. Officers wore 4-large buttons to fasten and another 4-medium for chest pockets and shoulder straps.

Not in 1/7 King's Liverpool

Tim

[davidwyke]

Hi Chaps

Army numbers are a complicated subject, to say the least. Toby is correct in saying that the numbering system evolved from a regimental number to an "army number". It happened in three main stages. I'm sure there are exceptions to the following and the dates might be out by a year or so but, as a general guide:

pre 1920 - numbers issued from a regimental or other unit list. A new number was issued each time a soldier transferred to a new unit. (In Victorian times at least, infantry numbers were issued from a battalion list. If a soldier transferred to a different regiment he would be issued with a new number but not usually for a transfer between battalions in the same regiment. So, it wasn't unusual for two men serving in the same battalion to have the same number).

1920-1950 - each regimen/corps was issued with it's own unique block of numbers and a soldier retained the same number throughout his service, regardless of any transfers. (This would be the case with the soldier queried in the original post here). There was no need to allocate a new number as the problem of duplicate numbers within the same unit shouldn't arise.

1950 - date - the numbers now issued on an army-wide basis based not on unit joined but on date of joining. Again, the same number is retained throughout service.

For the 1920-1950 period numbers it's usually fairly easy to determine which unit a soldier first served in. For the post 1950 numbers this isn't possible but it is possible to ascertain roughly when a soldier enlisted. I would emphasis the post 1950 numbers are a rough guide only as it becomes obvious when you match service numbers with date of joining that they aren't always strictly in sequence but they usually are approximately.

David