Ox & Bucks pre 1914 collars

[lettman]

I have this c.1913 tunic with white facings that I'd like to set up for the Oxford & Bucks Light Infantry. I can see from Westlake (p. 102) that I've got a choice of shoulder titles depending on whether I choose the 1st or 2nd Bns. But the collars are another matter! I've got Churchill's book, but maybe I'm just getting old and dim, because I'm having a lot of trouble understanding what he says the collars should be. It looks like the regt was authorised to wear a light inf bugle horn collar, but kept reverting to a button. Is that correct? Any information in plain English would be much appreciated!!

[jeanpit-frenchy]

for me "frenchy" is hardest to inderstand

but i think OR bugle with dark green background and and officer medium button.....

but my english isn't very good....

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

Here is the real thing, as worn by an Oxfordshire Light Infantry sergeant circa 1900. I cannot see any collar badges.

[lettman]

Thanks, guys, but nothing conclusive so far -- in fact two completely contradictory messages! Anyone care to act as an impartial referee??

[jeanpit-frenchy]

Originally Posted by lettman

Thanks, guys, but nothing conclusive so far -- in fact two completely contradictory messages! Anyone care to act as an impartial referee??

My post no reflete that what I believed to understand has the reading of the book of colin CHURCHILL

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

I did not say that the Oxfordshire Light Infantry did not wear collar badges on their pre-1914 red tunics - I merely said that the examples in the Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Museum Light Infantry Museum collection do not have collar badges. They do, however, have "collar badges" on their shoulder straps, together with the word "OXFORD" and the numbers "1" or "2V". These details can be seen on this Simkin print. The spiked helmets, as a matter of interest, where green rather than blue.

[lettman]

Apologies, gentlemen -- I didn't mean to appear dismissive about your replies. Thank you very much for your information and pictures. It just seems strange to me how difficult it is to be definite about what this unit actually wore (or didn't wear!) on their collars.

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

I think the problem is that the regiment changed the details of its uniforms at various times. The sequence of events will probably be set out in the Regimental Chronicle. Otherwise, the main outline of the OLI/OBLI uniform prior to 1914 is:

Red coat with white facings

Green cloth helmet

Bugle horn helmet plate and buttons

Bugle horn collar (when worn) and shoulder strap badges

OXFORD shoulder titles

All secondary sources say that the collar badges were plain bugle horns.

[lettman]

That's great, Stanley -- very clearly put. Westlake also mentions that the 2nd Bn (old 52nd) retained the OXFORD shoulder title (plus separate bugle horn) until 1914 while the 1st Bn (old 43rd) switched to the OXF & BUCKS with bugle horn when the regiment added Buckinghamshire to its title.

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

Here are some of the individual elements. The Oxf & Bucks shoulder titles would not have been worn prior to 1908. There were also two "2nd Battalions", the former Rifle Volunteers having been designated the 2nd (Volunteer) Bn during the Victorian period, although they later became the 4th Bn. Otherwise, the 43rd (Monmouthshire) Light Infantry and 52nd (Oxfordshire) Light Infantry became the 1st and 2nd regular Battalions respectively.

[lettman]

Very nice, Stanley -- I must start looking around for some of these.

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

I have had a quick look through the Oxfordshire Light Infantry Chronicle and found various references to uniform changes etc., including a comment to the effect that the 43rd and 52nd regiments disliked wearing collar badges because they were the very first light infantry regiments and did not feel it necessary to display too many LI bugle horns. Regulations may, at various times, have stipulated that collar badges should be worn but, in general, the two regiments did not wear badges on their collars.

[lettman]

That's a very firm piece of information -- huge thanks, Stanley! Makes it a lot easier to set up my scarlet tunic, too .

[colin 17]

They did not wear collar badges on full dress and I will have to look up were I got that from but off hand I cant remember. I am a uniform collector and have may books on the subject but no doubt one of them will have what I need.
Colin

[Toby Purcell]

The successor regiment, the Royal Green Jackets inherited that tradition. They wore no 'collar badges' on any form of dress, but they did wear shoulder titles on No3, No2 and No1 Dress.