2nd Bn. York and Lancaster Regt

[irish]

Could not figure out which sub topic this fits into.

Recently picked up this mug engraved to the 2nd Y&L Rgt. Appears to be pewter with a glass bottom.. it holds roughly a half pint. Would like to think this comes from the 1880's to 1890's period, a portion of which was spent in Africa, but no real way of knowing. The unit came into being in 1881 formed from the 84th Y&L Regiment of Foot. A neat piece.

[leigh kitchen]

Didn't really need the glass bottom if the owner was already in the army.... or perhaps he was out of the army & wanted to make sure he stayed out?
Nice.

[irish]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

Didn't really need the glass bottom if the owner was already in the army.... or perhaps he was out of the army & wanted to make sure he stayed out?
Nice.

Thanks Leigh, can you enlighten me regarding the need or not for the glass bottom?

Jack

[Deejayuu]

There was always a shortage of willing recruits for the army so the recruiting sergeants used any trick up there sleeve to get `volunteers`. When enlisting in the army to bind the contract you accepted the kings shilling. The sergeants used to buy a beer for the victim but slip the shilling into the pint, as soon as the victim accepted the pint and took a drink he was deemed to have accepted the kings shilling and was therefore enlisted. To avoid this glass bottomed mugs were used so the coin could be seen before the drink was accepted thus avoiding being recruited!

Nice mug by the way, great find

Cheers, Dave

[davidwyke]

Hi Jack

Nice Mug! Does it have any stamps on the outside of the rim by any chance? These mugs, although privately engraved, were sometimes kept at a particular pub/inn/tavern for the sole use of the person whose details are engraved on the mug. That being the case, even though they were privately owned, they had to be verified by weights & measures inspectors at regular intervals. They stamped their verification marks on the mug and these can often provide a town or at least a county and a year of inspection. If your mug doesn't have these stamps then it was very likely retained by the soldier himself. (These details are applicable to the UK, no doubt different rules applied overseas).

You often get a makers mark on the base and sometimes the name of the tavern - not on glass bottomed examples unfortunately. The explanation for the glass bottom detailed above is correct of course but another more mundane explanation is it was simply to prevent the drinker slamming the mug down on the bar or table; pewter dents very easily!

From formation in 1881 2/Y&L served during the 1880's in Ireland, Egypt, England, Bermuda, Canada & West Indies. They moved to South Africa in 1891, to India in 1897, England 1902 and Ireland 1911.

If you checked the British South Africa Co Medal rolls for their service there (they have been published) you might be able to ID an "SM". There will probably be lots of men with those initials though.

David

[irish]

Hello David, I have gone over the mug and can find no marks. The information on glass bottom mugs was new to me and quite interesting. Thanks to everyone for their input.

Best
Jack

[Toby Purcell]

I don't think the initials relate to a man's name. I would lay a large wager that the 'S.M' relates to THE Sergeant Major, who was the then equivalent of today's RSM, because there were no CSMs, but instead 8x Colour Sergeants. 'The SM' was often used as a short hand for his pre-eminent position. A very exciting piece.

[davidwyke]

Hi Toby

You may well be correct. In which case, Jack may be able to identify a likely suspect and possibly even locate a photo. One thing doesn't add up though: what self-respecting Victorian Sgt Major would drink from a HALF PINT mug?

David

[Postwarden]

Although I can't find it at the moment I have a similar half pint mug with glass bottom named to my grandfather as a a Sgt in the Army Pay Corps.

I have always assumed that they were Sgt's Mess items identified by the rank of the user as if they were named they would need to be changed with the holder of the rank.

Jon

[Toby Purcell]

Yes they are Sergeants' mess items and reflect a long dead cultural practice pre the preponderance of glass drinking vessels for beer. When I first joined the Army it was still common to see the rows of pewter tankards hanging on hooks behind the Sgts Mess bar, at a time when the officers' mess did not have a bar and relied instead on a duty steward to bring drinks to the ante room.

The tankards were usually half pints as a hangover from the time when efforts were made to reduce alcoholism and drink in moderation. Unlike glass the pewter tankards withstood frequent packing and unpacking during regular unit moves. At the end I remember that the tankards had merely become bar decor and the men who drank from them long gone as the young SNCOs drank from the new fangled glass pints. The tankards did not belong to the individuals but were 'mess property' and used by thevarious appointees in position at the time. There were similar (often identical) tankards for the other members of the battalion 'staff', such as RQMS, Provost and so forth.

I recall carrying out mandatory 'property checks' and musing to myself as to when these dusty and tarnished relics had last been drank from.

[irish]

Thanks to everyone for their input. It sounds as though this piece may be researchable.

Best
Jack