Buttons to the London Regiment

[janner305]

Can anyone help with either photos or info on the buttons to individual battalions of the London Regiment?
I have seen examples in Ripley's first book of the 7th, 10th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 18th, 25th and 28th, but have never seen buttons ascribed to the 1st - 4th (Royal Fusiliers), 5th (London Rifle Brigade), 6th, 8th (Post Office Rifles), 11th (Finsbury), 12th (Rangers), 15th (Civil Service Rifles), 17th (Poplar & Stepney), 19th (St Pancras), 20th (Blackheath & Woolwich) and 21st - 24th Battalions.
Did these battalions have their own buttons??
Any information would be much appreciated.

Regards

Janner305

[ANGLE IRON]

Quick reply from memory as on very short lunch, There is a fusileer button with 3 on ball , a london rifle brigade one with LRB within the strung bugle, a civil service one white metal plumes centre with strap and crown, st pancras in book tucked away, I wrote to Howard Ripley years ago and i have the reply somewhere if i can find it will give you a shout, Kevin

[ANGLE IRON]

No luck finding letter but these re all the london buttons as far as I know, I think other battalions wore either standard Royal Fusileers , standard Queens, or standard black horn Rifles button accordingly, If there is another forum member who has definitive answer I would also like to know for my own notes as I dont hold out much hope of finding letter, best regards Kevin

[ANGLE IRON]

Found it HUZZAR, my questions are in blue and Howard Ripley has made notes in red beside in answer. Hope you can read it , Kevin

[janner305]

Many thanks for the swift and concise reply Kevin - very helpful.
Raises 2 questions however:
1. The term "Standard Rifles Button" - is this the rifle brigade button or the general Rifle Volunteer button with king's crown - or some other??
2. Some of my buttons and evident in your photos are both brass & white metal versions. I would have assumed that as a regular army regiment, buttons would all have been gilt/brass. Is there any rationale??
Once again, thanks for your invaluable help

Janner305

[ANGLE IRON]

I assume the rifles button to be the black horn crowned strung bugle, As for the metals they are TA units so the white metal variants probably hark back to the earlear volunteer days or may indeed be late volunteer buttons, We need a London Regiment Buff to clear things up , Best regards Kevin

[Rob Miller]

This is a very interesting thread.

What era is this 18mm 19th button? Rob.

[ANGLE IRON]

Very nice , thats another i will have to look for,I reckon post 1908 with regard to formation of London Regiment Perhaps an officers pattern? interesting that in Howards book he refers to the version I have as the later Artilery role.

[CAM]

I thought I was doing well with my collection of London Regiment buttons (I only collect large size although do have some medium). I, like others, had been unable to find any published reference and used this thread as a baseline, in particular the hand written note by Howard Ripley, provided by ANGLE IRON.

I was reading an article in Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research the other day titled ‘Badges of the London Regiment, 1908-1937’ (Vol. 24, No. 97 (Spring, 1946), pp. 1-10). In the article, the author (Lt. E.J. Martin T.A.R.O.) also describes the buttons and provides plates with photographic illustrations.

Howard Ripley’s note states that the buttons to the 20th Battalion, were the white horse over ‘Invicta”. [as per cap badge – my words] Martin describes the badge and button as
Cap badge: The White Horse of Kent above a scroll in Old English lettering the motto ‘Invicta’. A second scroll beneath bore the designation ‘20th Batt. – The London Regiment (Fig.17)…Buttons: The Queen’s Own Royal West Kent Regiment were worn (Fig.52).

I had assumed, like Ripley (who had done his bit in researching buttons) that the Horse above Invicta button was worn. (My assumption was only based upon purchasing a cap, collar and button set bearing the device) – but it would make sense for them to have worn the former regimental affiliation buttons, similar to 1st – 4th Battalions viz Royal Fusiliers and 23rd Battalion viz East Surreys.

The Regiment formed in 1908 from the 2nd and 3rd Volunteer Battalions Queen’s Own Royal West Kent Regiment and in 1937, it became 34th (The Queen’s Own Royal West Kent) A.A. Battalion. R.E. . When the TA was reconstituted on 1 January 1947, the regiment reformed as 569 (The Queen's Own) Searchlight Regiment RA. The regiment still wore its 20th Londons cap badge. In 1955, when the A.A. Command disbanded, as part of the reduction the regiment was merged into 265 Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, becoming a squadron, therein.

As Martin writes in 1946, and states that the West Kent buttons “were worn” it suggests before becoming R.E. (and certainly before becoming R.A.)

Additionally, Martin refers to the 18th Battalion (London Irish Rifles) where he describes two types of button (the first I was unaware of). “The button is of black bone. The first type bore the crowned harp within a band worded ‘London Irish – 18th County of London’ (Fig. 49) The band had been replaced by a scalloped edge and the designation ‘London Irish Rifles’ is upon the scroll with a shamrock spray at either end beneath the harp, the button being generally of the same design as that of the parent regiment, The Royal Ulster Rifles (Fig. 50).

I would previously have discussed this by email with the late Crybyn. Any comments by other members would be welcome.

[spreadeagle]

"Additionally, Martin refers to the 18th Battalion (London Irish Rifles) where he describes two types of button (the first I was unaware of). “The button is of black bone. The first type bore the crowned harp within a band worded ‘London Irish – 18th County of London’ (Fig. 49) The band had been replaced by a scalloped edge and the designation ‘London Irish Rifles’ is upon the scroll with a shamrock spray at either end beneath the harp, the button being generally of the same design as that of the parent regiment, The Royal Ulster Rifles (Fig. 50)."

I would previously have discussed this by email with the late Crybyn. Any comments by other members would be welcome.[/QUOTE]

Here are the 2 early pattern London Irish Rifles as mentioned.

Cheers.
Al

[CAM]

Thanks for showing Al

[leigh kitchen]

Originally Posted by CAM

I thought I was doing well with my collection of London Regiment buttons (I only collect large size although do have some medium). I, like others, had been unable to find any published reference and used this thread as a baseline, in particular the hand written note by Howard Ripley, provided by ANGLE IRON.

I was reading an article in Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research the other day titled ‘Badges of the London Regiment, 1908-1937’ (Vol. 24, No. 97 (Spring, 1946), pp. 1-10). In the article, the author (Lt. E.J. Martin T.A.R.O.) also describes the buttons and provides plates with photographic illustrations.

Howard Ripley’s note states that the buttons to the 20th Battalion, were the white horse over ‘Invicta”. [as per cap badge – my words] Martin describes the badge and button as
Cap badge: The White Horse of Kent above a scroll in Old English lettering the motto ‘Invicta’. A second scroll beneath bore the designation ‘20th Batt. – The London Regiment (Fig.17)…Buttons: The Queen’s Own Royal West Kent Regiment were worn (Fig.52).

I had assumed, like Ripley (who had done his bit in researching buttons) that the Horse above Invicta button was worn. (My assumption was only based upon purchasing a cap, collar and button set bearing the device) – but it would make sense for them to have worn the former regimental affiliation buttons, similar to 1st – 4th Battalions viz Royal Fusiliers and 23rd Battalion viz East Surreys.

The Regiment formed in 1908 from the 2nd and 3rd Volunteer Battalions Queen’s Own Royal West Kent Regiment and in 1937, it became 34th (The Queen’s Own Royal West Kent) A.A. Battalion. R.E. . When the TA was reconstituted on 1 January 1947, the regiment reformed as 569 (The Queen's Own) Searchlight Regiment RA. The regiment still wore its 20th Londons cap badge. In 1955, when the A.A. Command disbanded, as part of the reduction the regiment was merged into 265 Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, becoming a squadron, therein.

As Martin writes in 1946, and states that the West Kent buttons “were worn” it suggests before becoming R.E. (and certainly before becoming R.A.)

Additionally, Martin refers to the 18th Battalion (London Irish Rifles) where he describes two types of button (the first I was unaware of). “The button is of black bone. The first type bore the crowned harp within a band worded ‘London Irish – 18th County of London’ (Fig. 49) The band had been replaced by a scalloped edge and the designation ‘London Irish Rifles’ is upon the scroll with a shamrock spray at either end beneath the harp, the button being generally of the same design as that of the parent regiment, The Royal Ulster Rifles (Fig. 50).

I would previously have discussed this by email with the late Crybyn. Any comments by other members would be welcome.

20th Londons at times wore different cap badges within the unit depending on sub unit although I can't remember the details.

An uncle who served in the unit during WWII told me that at various times he wore the 20th London, RE and RA badges.
A photo dated 1940 shows him in SD with RE cap and collar badges and buttons, a photo dated 1944 in BD with RA cap badge.
Unfortunately I don't have a photo of him wearing the other insignia.

[CAM]

Leigh,

Martin's article describes the changes too.

Chris