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Old 20-03-19, 08:56 AM
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Default RSM's

Prior to 1914, did RSM's in the various regular RA Divisions wear all the trappings of commissioned officers (except their rank insignia) when in Home Service Full Dress and Service Dress?
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Old 20-03-19, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
Prior to 1914, did RSM's in the various regular RA Divisions wear all the trappings of commissioned officers (except their rank insignia) when in Home Service Full Dress and Service Dress?
In full dress they wore what was called a ‘First Class’ tunic (there were two other grades, sergeants and rank and file), that was similar but not identical in every way with that worn by a commissioned officer. Each of the Arms and Services had an equivalent First Class tunic that was worn by warrant officers and certain senior sergeants, known collectively at that time as staff sergeants (e.g. QMSs).

Service Dress, as an item of undress, was more complicated. Traditionally undress garments, such as the various frocks, were issued in just one quality for all other ranks, but then embellished with extra, or gold lace (according to rank) and similarly superior quality badges of rank. Purposefully drab, the 1902 service dress did not lend itself to similar embellishment and there was at first some confusion as to what should be done to differentiate the warrant officers (then just one grade) and senior sergeants (QMSs, etc.) in the various Arms and Services. Evidentential photos show that as there does not at first seem to have been a centralised decree, units followed a variety of courses that were not always consistent. All that can be said with any certainty is that regimental arrangement was made for the most senior RA appointments, such as Brigade (later ‘Regimental’) Sergeants Major, AIGs (with warrants) and First and Second Class Master Gunners to be fitted with officer pattern SD without cuff rank, together with Sam Brownes. An important point is that this was not at public expense. When the officers pattern SD jacket changed to a stepped rever collar (with shirt and tie) in 1912, in the RA and most (but not all) other corps the rise and fall, closed collar was retained for warrant officers.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 20-03-19 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 20-03-19, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
In full dress they wore what was called a ‘First Class’ tunic (there were two other grades, sergeants and rank and file), that was similar but not identical in every way with that worn by a commissioned officer. Each of the Arms and Services had an equivalent First Class tunic that was worn by warrant officers and certain senior sergeants, known collectively at that time as staff sergeants (e.g. QMSs).

Service Dress, as an item of undress, was more complicated. Traditionally undress garments, such as the various frocks, were issued in just one quality for all other ranks, but then embellished with extra, or gold lace (according to rank) and similarly superior quality badges of rank. Purposefully drab, the 1902 service dress did not lend itself to similar embellishment and there was at first some confusion as to what should be done to differentiate the warrant officers (then just one grade) and senior sergeants (QMSs, etc.) in the various Arms and Services. Evidentential photos show that as there does not at first seem to have been a centralised decree, units followed a variety of courses that were not always consistent. All that can be said with any certainty is that regimental arrangement was made for the most senior RA appointments, such as Brigade (later ‘Regimental’) Sergeants Major, AIGs (with warrants) and First and Second Class Master Gunners to be fitted with officer pattern SD without cuff rank, together with Sam Brownes. An important point is that this was not at public expense. When the officers pattern SD jacket changed to a stepped rever collar (with shirt and tie) in 1912, in the RA and most (but not all) other corps the rise and fall, closed collar was retained for warrant officers.
Great answer Toby. Saved me a lot of typing

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Old 21-03-19, 07:48 AM
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Okay, so I can safely think, in the case of Home Service Full Dress, the answer would be no and in the case of Service Dress, the answer would be yes, many thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
In full dress they wore what was called a ‘First Class’ tunic (there were two other grades, sergeants and rank and file), that was similar but not identical in every way with that worn by a commissioned officer. Each of the Arms and Services had an equivalent First Class tunic that was worn by warrant officers and certain senior sergeants, known collectively at that time as staff sergeants (e.g. QMSs).

Service Dress, as an item of undress, was more complicated. Traditionally undress garments, such as the various frocks, were issued in just one quality for all other ranks, but then embellished with extra, or gold lace (according to rank) and similarly superior quality badges of rank. Purposefully drab, the 1902 service dress did not lend itself to similar embellishment and there was at first some confusion as to what should be done to differentiate the warrant officers (then just one grade) and senior sergeants (QMSs, etc.) in the various Arms and Services. Evidentential photos show that as there does not at first seem to have been a centralised decree, units followed a variety of courses that were not always consistent. All that can be said with any certainty is that regimental arrangement was made for the most senior RA appointments, such as Brigade (later ‘Regimental’) Sergeants Major, AIGs (with warrants) and First and Second Class Master Gunners to be fitted with officer pattern SD without cuff rank, together with Sam Brownes. An important point is that this was not at public expense. When the officers pattern SD jacket changed to a stepped rever collar (with shirt and tie) in 1912, in the RA and most (but not all) other corps the rise and fall, closed collar was retained for warrant officers.
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