Sergeant Major Rank Badge - RA?

[Op-Ack]

Whilst at the Royal School of Artillery last year, I spotted an RSM wearing what appeared to be the standard RSM insignia on a circular patch, as opposed to the more normal outline.

Anyone what the rank insignia represents (RSM Royal School of Artillery, Master Gunner RSA etc?).

Cheers

Phil

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Op-Ack

Whilst at the Royal School of Artillery last year, I spotted an RSM wearing what appeared to be the standard RSM insignia on a circular patch, as opposed to the more normal outline.

Anyone what the rank insignia represents (RSM Royal School of Artillery, Master Gunner RSA etc?).

Cheers

Phil

I believe WO1 (Conductors - RLC) and WO1 (Master Gunners - RA) both wear a coat of arms encircled by a laurel wreath and thus on a circular patch. This is an old badge of rank and prior to the introduction of warrant officer
(1898) marked the most senior of a group of ORs who were then referred to generically as 'First Class Staff Serjeants' (a meaning similar to Staff Officer and referring to role rather than rank). The badge marked precedence rather than seniority per se and the traditional who was promoted first still (officially) stood. That said there has long been controversy as the Conductors claim seniority based upon an order that Conductor should be junior to all officers but senior to all ORs. All of the remaining positions that would hitherto have been 'First Class Staff Serjeants' (some have been discontinued over the years) are now Warrant Officers First Class (WO1) but only the 2 referred to above wear the badge in laurel wreath commemorating their precedence.

[54Bty]

Today in the Royal Regiment of Artillery the Royal Arms in a wreath of laurel is only worn by a Warrant Officer Class 1 who is appointed the Master Gunner Royal School of Artillery, all other Warrant Officers Class 1 Master Gunners wear the standard Royal Arms. Both badges should be worn above a field gun. Until some time around 1977 there were two Master Gunner ranks, those of WO1 MG Class 1 wore the Royal Arms in a Wreath and those of WO1 MG Class 2 wore the Royal Arms, again both above a field gun.

[Op-Ack]

Many thanks Toby and 54Bty. I feel sure that the individual I saw was the Master Gunner Royal School of Artillery.

Again, thanks for your comments and informative posts.

Phil

[54Bty]

Originally Posted by Op-Ack

Many thanks Toby and 54Bty. I feel sure that the individual I saw was the Master Gunner Royal School of Artillery.

Again, thanks for your comments and informative posts.

Phil

You could always call in the office when I am in and ask.

[Op-Ack]

Sounds like a plan to me. I call in next time I'm there.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by 54Bty

Today in the Royal Regiment of Artillery the Royal Arms in a wreath of laurel is only worn by a Warrant Officer Class 1 who is appointed the Master Gunner Royal School of Artillery, all other Warrant Officers Class 1 Master Gunners wear the standard Royal Arms. Both badges should be worn above a field gun. Until some time around 1977 there were two Master Gunner ranks, those of WO1 MG Class 1 wore the Royal Arms in a Wreath and those of WO1 MG Class 2 wore the Royal Arms, again both above a field gun.

That fits with my understanding of the history of the badge but I am saddened that the badge is no longer so prolific as it was pre 1977, as it marked a senior WO in the same 'Group 1' as Conductor (KRs/QRs refer). I recognise that the WO1 (MG) still exists, but the badge is now merely standardised with all other WOs1 in the RA and other Arms. A pity I feel.

[Toby Purcell]

On the left is the original (1915) badge of 'Group One' Warrant Officers First Class (i.e. Conductor AOC, Staff Sergeant Major ASC and Master Gunner First Class) and on the right the badge of 'Group Two' Warrant Officers First Class vide KRs.

These badges remained the same until 1977 when the changes in the RA referred to above came about.

[54Bty]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

On the left is the original (1915) badge of 'Group One' Warrant Officers First Class (i.e. Conductor AOC, Staff Sergeant Major ASC and Master Gunner First Class) and on the right the badge of 'Group Two' Warrant Officers First Class vide KRs.

These badges remained the same until 1977 when the changes in the RA referred to above came about.

The above is correct for 1918 (AO309) but not for 1915 (AO174). Originally the Royal Arms was worn by Sub-Conductors, Master Gunners 2nd Class, Schoolmasters, Sergeant Majors, Farrier Corporal Majors, and Farrier Sergeant Majors.
Those Senior ie; Conductors, Master Gunners 1st Class, etc., wore the Crown in Wreath. Again Master Gunners wore the Field Gun below.

[wright241]

Originally Posted by 54Bty

The above is correct for 1918 (AO309) but not for 1915 (AO174). Originally the Royal Arms was worn by Sub-Conductors, Master Gunners 2nd Class, Schoolmasters, Sergeant Majors, Farrier Corporal Majors, and Farrier Sergeant Majors.
Those Senior ie; Conductors, Master Gunners 1st Class, etc., wore the Crown in Wreath. Again Master Gunners wore the Field Gun below.

Good day.
My step father was a WOI in the RA and his last appointment (retiring after 32+years) was as an RQMS over in Thiepval. I am sure his working and No1 dress coat-of-arms badges were the same (similar) shape as the one on the right in your pics, or am I mistaken?
Unfortunately, although I did have No2 and No1 (bullion etc) dress versions in the 70's - they were stolen - I would have liked to replace them. Any ideas - apart from E..y?
Thanks, David

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by 54Bty

The above is correct for 1918 (AO309) but not for 1915 (AO174). Originally the Royal Arms was worn by Sub-Conductors, Master Gunners 2nd Class, Schoolmasters, Sergeant Majors, Farrier Corporal Majors, and Farrier Sergeant Majors.
Those Senior ie; Conductors, Master Gunners 1st Class, etc., wore the Crown in Wreath. Again Master Gunners wore the Field Gun below.

I had though that was what I said. I am aware of changes bewteen 1915 and 1918 (they were key of course in introducing 2nd Class WOs). I had said that as 'Group 1', Conductors, Master Gunners 1st Class, etc., wore the Crown in Wreath and all other 'Group 2' WOs1 (in 1915 just 'WOs' without class distinction as there were no 2nd Class WOs at that time but I wanted to keep things simple) wore the Royal Arms. I see nothing different between us except that for simplicity I referred to WOs1.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by wright241

Good day.
My step father was a WOI in the RA and his last appointment (retiring after 32+years) was as an RQMS over in Thiepval. I am sure his working and No1 dress coat-of-arms badges were the same (similar) shape as the one on the right in your pics, or am I mistaken?
Unfortunately, although I did have No2 and No1 (bullion etc) dress versions in the 70's - they were stolen - I would have liked to replace them. Any ideas - apart from E..y?
Thanks, David

David, the RQMS has never worn a coat of arms as a badge of rank. At first he wore 4 inverted chevrons with star above on right forearm. After 1915 he wore a crown in laurel wreath.

[Toby Purcell]

Here are the (R)QMS (in laurels) and Serjeant Major badges.