TAVR Question

[dak580]

G'day members

Don’t know if this is the right place but I can’t see anywhere better to post a territorial question.

Looking at K&K2 and basing my collection around the early 1970’s

So my questions are as follows.

I have recently acquired a Buckingham Battalion in blackened metal but I see Alan has what looks like a blackened a/a so is K&K miss informed as they state issued in black-metal?


Staffordshire Regiment
K&K2 - Gold a/a.
Anyone seen one?
Did they ever have a metal version?
How can you tell this cap badge from a collar dog, can anyone tell me the size of the cap badge v collar?


DLI – 5th 6th 8th & 9th battalion
K&K2 -Blackened brass.
Have seen plenty of QC metal and a/a in silver but no brass badges. Would they have not just painted the a/a silver badge black?

Wessex Regiment
I take this is the Wessex Brigade badge reused?

Thanks
John

[Alan O]

John,

The staffs badge is like the Holy Grail – nobody has seen one. Personally I think it is a ‘fantasy’ badge. Hugh King had a gold anodised (not aluminium mind you) badge in his collection. This is in his book. I doubt that it was in fact a cap badge. An a/a version has yet to appear.

Good point - again I have never seen a black aluminium one. Whether they were locally painted or made by the company in black is a mute point. Yes I do have a factory blackened a/a Bucks regt badge and this is indeed silver underneath. It (like the Q/c metal ones) is marked JR Gaunt BHam - so it is 1970s. I have yet to find out when the Bn was disbanded but I suspect it was in 1968 which means that all of the Q/C ones are later repros.

Wessex - yes it is.

Alan

[NorthStafford]

It's worth bearing in mind when talking of blackened a/a badges that lots of units blackened their badges for use in Northern Ireland and obviously some would have made a better job of it than others. The favourite method in the Regiment I was attached to was to use a matt black aerosol of car paint.

[Alan O]

You are quite right. I would be interested to see the dress regs for the TA Durhams in the 1960s to see whether they state that there was an official issue black badge. The other options that the Bn locally painted them or that people are seeing blackened ones and are presuming they were TA when they are not. While the DLI were not in NI the same badge was worn by cadets until the 1990s, if not later, and I reckon that they (cadets) would paint badges for field use.

I saw one of these DLI badges sold on recently (it may even have been buywyze) and it was clearly a silver one that had been boot poished or similiar. The Bucks Bn is factory blackened esp as there was never a silver a/a version in the first place unlike the DLI.

Alan

[dak580]

Thanks Alan and Northstafford for the replies so far.

The blackened metal Bucks battalion I have is also Gaunt B’Ham stamped so would be from the same era.

I’ll e-mail the DLI and see if they can shed any light on the ‘brass’ TA badge if not I might just get a a/a one and paint it or I’ll be waiting forever to fill the spot.

Now if the 5th/6th Staffordshire did not wear the knot badge any idea’s what badge they might have worn?

John

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by dak580

G'day members

Don’t know if this is the right place but I can’t see anywhere better to post a territorial question.

Looking at K&K2 and basing my collection around the early 1970’s

So my questions are as follows.

I have recently acquired a Buckingham Battalion in blackened metal but I see Alan has what looks like a blackened a/a so is K&K miss informed as they state issued in black-metal?


Staffordshire Regiment
K&K2 - Gold a/a.
Anyone seen one?
Did they ever have a metal version?
How can you tell this cap badge from a collar dog, can anyone tell me the size of the cap badge v collar?


DLI – 5th 6th 8th & 9th battalion
K&K2 -Blackened brass.
Have seen plenty of QC metal and a/a in silver but no brass badges. Would they have not just painted the a/a silver badge black?

Wessex Regiment
I take this is the Wessex Brigade badge reused?

Thanks
John

Hi John,

From an anodised point of view only:

Staffordshire Badge

If this is the 5th/6th Battn Staffordshire badge the only ones I have seen are cast fake items being sold as anodised aluminium versions. These badges have a cast line to the edge of the badge where the two dies met. There are other indicators but we don't want to tell the fakers all the indicators of such badges here.


DLI – 5th 6th 8th & 9th battalion

Dunno but the majority of black badges are either hand done 'painted up' items or unofficial commissions even if purchased and worn by active service members.


Wessex Regiment

Both are the same although if you can reconcile the dates the maker marks were used with the active service dates of both units you could in theory separate the two badges by date of manufacture.

Regards

Chris

[dak580]

Hi Chris

Looks like everyone is in agreement the 5th/6th Staffordshire Regt badge is busted (to quote a well known TV show). It also sounds like stay well clear of this badge unless you can hold it in your hands.

Again any idea what the 5th/6th would have worn?

With the DLI (TA) badge any idea’s where the TA might have got them and would they have been a/a or metal painted black?

Cheers
John

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by dak580

Hi Chris

Looks like everyone is in agreement the 5th/6th Staffordshire Regt badge is busted (to quote a well known TV show). It also sounds like stay well clear of this badge unless you can hold it in your hands.

Again any idea what the 5th/6th would have worn?

With the DLI (TA) badge any idea’s where the TA might have got them and would they have been a/a or metal painted black?

Cheers
John

Hi John,

Yeah, keep away from 5th/6th stuff unless you can find an anodised one with excellent providence. I expect this is one badge that will be made to unofficial commission quite soon in the future.

Sorry, I have no idea re: specific unit histories only their active service dates which I then use to reconcile against the method of badge manufacture and active service life of manufacturers themselves. This way you can spot the possible genuine ones from the later unofficial commissions or possible fakes by using timeline comparisons as one part of the ID process. Again, sorry but 5th/6th Staffords is not even on my list of items to acquire and I have the same amount of faith in a genuine one as Alan has.

No idea re: DLI either

BUT

most subdued badges anodised aluminium badges being apart from 'painted up' items were usually manufactured by official MOD contractors under instructions from regimental shops etc. including individual unit orders. When I was in the 395 Air Despatch Troop we commissioned an unofficial unit badge that we wore on our flying suits and which I have shown elsewhere on the forum.

However, in regard to subdued badges - so far I have found NONE that were officially authorised for issue even if they were worn by active service personnel in carrying out their duties.

These subdued badges are also made by unofficial manufacturers too and are all over eBay. Of possible interest is that I no longer actively seek out any subdued badges at all.

Regards

Chris

[hagwalther]

Hi Guys,

I have been very busy in the UK researching into A/A badges and found at the Kew Archives yesterday that the 5th/6th Battn of the Staffordshire Regiment had the contract to it's A/A badge cancelled before any were manufactured due to the closing down of TAVR III units in the 1960's.

I will post the original documents containing this info when I get back to EnZed.

As such, it is fair to say that this badge was never authorised for issue or officially manufactured.

Regards

Chris

[Alan O]

Chris,

Brilliant piece of research.

Alan

[hagwalther]

Thanks Alan,

I have unearthed quite a lot of info re: other things too and will report back on this in the future. I went through a collection of Scottish anodised badges which were mounted in cards and sealed with wax and an 'officers pattern' stamp from 1970.

All these badges were of thicker guage aluminium sheet and all were semi-hollowback design. These were in the Imperial War Museum which implies that pre 1970 at least all Scottish badges were of a semi-hollowback style.

Also, the sealed pattern card of the Junior Leaders Battn was marked as J. R. GAUNT B'HAM and was dated (I think) 1969 but well before 1973. Looks like we will have to rethink this one too.

Back at IWM today to go through this 1970's sealed collection which include belts, buttons, etc including non anodised items and then the National Archives again.

IWM also had original pencil sketches of some anodised badges, Firmin artwork for some buttons and even some lead impressions of some buttons. All quite interesting.

Regards

Chris

[NorthStafford]

Just from memory (Which isn't perfect) I think 5th/6th Staffs would have worn the Mercian Volunteers/Brigade cap badge as this was the badge worn by the Regular battalion on the amalgamation and also definitely worn by the TA successors 3rd Staffs who became The Mercian Volunteers.

[Mike H]

Thats right NorthStafford,i had friends who served in the Mercian Volunteers.
Im not sure of the date when the battalion reverted back to the Staffs but mid to late eighties rings a bell.

[ukbrits]

Hi Guys,
Yes Chris, excellent research. Like many I have been searching without luck for the 5th / 6th Staffordshire Regt anodised aluminium cap badge.

Heavy duty alloy gold coloured ones have appeared which we have correctly in my opinion given the thumbs down to.

The one thing that has bothered me with this "possible" a/a badge is that I know 2 collectors who have claimed to own one! On digging in a bit deeper I have discovered that both badges owned by these fellow collectors have lugs!
Now my theory is that these may well be scarce anodised aluminium collar badges to the South Staffordshire Regt re Churchill & Westlake No 219 British Army Collar Badges 1881 to the present. Not being an expert on a/a collar badges I would welcome opinions from other Forum members more knowledgable on collar dogs than me.

Is it plausible that these scarce a/a collars have actually been mistaken for a cap badge to the 5th / 6th Staffordshire Bn that we know from Chris's reseach never existed?
Your opinions welcomed
Best Regards
UKbrits

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by ukbrits

Hi Guys,
Yes Chris, excellent research. Like many I have been searching without luck for the 5th / 6th Staffordshire Regt anodised aluminium cap badge.

Heavy duty alloy gold coloured ones have appeared which we have correctly in my opinion given the thumbs down to.

The one thing that has bothered me with this "possible" a/a badge is that I know 2 collectors who have claimed to own one! On digging in a bit deeper I have discovered that both badges owned by these fellow collectors have lugs!
Now my theory is that these may well be scarce anodised aluminium collar badges to the South Staffordshire Regt re Churchill & Westlake No 219 British Army Collar Badges 1881 to the present. Not being an expert on a/a collar badges I would welcome opinions from other Forum members more knowledgable on collar dogs than me.

Is it plausible that these scarce a/a collars have actually been mistaken for a cap badge to the 5th / 6th Staffordshire Bn that we know from Chris's reseach never existed?
Your opinions welcomed
Best Regards
UKbrits

Hi UKBrits,

Trolling through the file at the National Archives I found that there was a request for collar devices to be of a design of just the knot. However, as the knot design by itself was deemed (I'm sorry I can't remember the exact term) 'special' it was never allowed by the Collage of Arms who indeed rejected any design as such and did this many times!!! They constantly commented that the knot with something else was OK but not by itself. Eventually the regiment got the drift that the knot by itself was not to be used and gave up.

I can't comment on other books but only what I read from official correspondance - when I get into the images of National Archive documents (currently stuck big time on LoC documentation where it seems that some designated G.M. and W.M. badges often came post the designated anodised aluminium versions but used the same inherited A/A CB number) I will tell this properly.

As such, I would be surprised if any device designed with just the Staffordshire knot was kosher. They may well exist but whether they actually should or not is a totally different matter.

Regards

Chris