Button Identification

[4966Ian]

Hi there,

Like everybody else, I have been using the long weekend to go through my bag of “unidentifieds”. Just on the off-chance that somebody out there may recognise any of these buttons, any help would be gratefully received. Some look very familiar but I just can’t place them. (Sorry for all the additional detail, but it may help in the identification process).

1. In Gothic script, the letters “POH”. (23mm - Open backed button – NO backmark).
[Positive Id = Pembroke Otter Hounds. (Source : Hunt Buttons by Conrad Sheward - #1500)]

2. Prince of Wales plumes in a coronet, with motto scrolls “ICH” “DIEN” over the letters “R F C”. (Royal Flintstone Company? Militia?) (19mm – closed back. Backmark = “T SHAW LONDON”).
[Positive Id = Royal Carmarthen Fusiliers Militia. (Source : #10 - Scottish, Welsh & Channel Islands Infantry Militia Buttons 1757-1881 by Howard Ripley & Denis Darmanin)]

3. What appears to be the letters “SR” in stylised script below a QVC. (maybe a Rifle Volunteers of some sort?). (24mm – closed back. Backmark = “TREBLE STANDd EXTRA RICH”).

4. Within a wreath the letters “LF” below a rose. (Lancashire Fusiliers?) (23mm - Open backed button – Backmark = “AUSTIN & OAKER LONDON.W”).
[Positive Id = Legion of Frontiersmen. (circa : post 1907)]

5. Not sure how to describe this, a crescent with a leaf standing up? With a three part motto scroll, which reads “LE VEVLX” “POVR” “LE FAICT”. (26mm – closed back. Backmark = “FIRMIN & SONS Ld LONDON”).

6. Prince of Wales plumes and coronet with the “ICH” “DIEN” motto scrolls up close to the coronet. (24mm – Closed back. Backmark = “JENNENS & Co LONDON”.)

7. Royal garter with a ‘strange’ crown atop it. To the centre of the garter in gothic script are the letters “KC”. (27mm – open backed. Backmark = “FIRMIN LONDON”).
[Positive Id = Kings Colonials Officer's Mess Waiters' Button]

8. Flat gilt button with the incised design of a KC atop two crossed rifles with the stylised letters “CTC” (not sure about the “T”?). (22mm Open backed. Backmark = “PITT & Co 31 MADDOX St LONDON.W”).
[Positive Id = 6th Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers) - Hunt Button. (Source : page 335 Hunt Buttons by Neil McShane)]

9. A lion standing on a rope/torse, holding a sword. (Sorry about the pictures detail, the button is quite worn). (17mm, closed back. NO backmark).

10. Gilt mounted, a KC atop a very tall and thin Prince of Wales plumes and coronet. With stylised “ICH” “DIEN” motto scrolls. (23mm – closed back. Backmark = “JENNENS & Co LONDON”). (Indian maybe?)

11. A Coronet above a rose. (The Intelligence Corps has a Crown (KC or QC) atop a rose, which was confusing me for while). (24mm - closed back. Backmark = “FIRMIN & SONS Ld LONDON PATENT 2346”).

12. A laurel wreath with a coronet at the top, with crossed swords to the middle. (25mm – closed back. Backmark = “JENNENS & Co. LONDON (PoW plumes)”).
[Positive Id = Oxford Military College (circa 1876-1896)]


Thanks for any help, they have been driving me crazy for months now.

Cheers

Ian

[Alex Rice]

A stab in the dark here: number 3, SR might be Scottish Rifles, ie Cameronian Highlanders; number 9 is the lion of Rhodesia but not sure what it for, maybe some sort of general service. The lion has an elephant tusk in its paw.
Cheers,
Alex

[4966Ian]

Hi Alex,

Thanks for those ideas, much appreciated. A couple of the buttons are quite close in design to other buttons that it was quite confusing - well for me!

Oh well back to the reference books......

Ian

[btns]

Finally:
4. Legion of Frontiersmen, early design
btns

[4966Ian]

Hi btns,

Wow, great detective work! All I could come up with for the "LF" and the rose was maybe an Officer's mess dress button for the "Lancashire Fusiliers".

Do you have any ideas of the dates of usage? (Pressumably 1905 to ?)

I am assuming (probably wrongly) that the "LF" and rose pattern was superceded by the union flag and "Frontiersmen" button shown below.

Many thanks

Ian

[btns]

A (or the) die for the rose-LF button was made 1-6-07.
I do not know when the new logo was introduced.
regards,
btns

[4966Ian]

Hi btns,

Many thanks for the update, much appreciated.

Cheers

Ian

[charlie962]

Ian, did you ever get an ID for button no1, POH ?
I have a couple identical, noted as 'from Pitt and Co as Princes Own Hussars' which doesn't mean a lot to me. They look more like a hunt button?
Charlie

[Cribyn]

Hello Charlie

'POH' is indeed a hunt button, Pembrokeshire Otter Hounds, identified as such in a privately published book "Hunt Buttons" by Conrad Sheward.

If you read this Ian and still want IDs on some of the other buttons, I think I may have a couple of answers but I guess that your original query was so long ago that you don't have the buttons any more!

Regards
Roger

[btns]

Proof from the pattern book ...

[4966Ian]

Hi there,

This a blast from the past.

I did manage to subsequently ID a few of the buttons in addition to Btns id of the Legion of Frontiersmen (Nos. 4).

7. Kings Colonials Mess Waiters Button
8. 6th Dragoon Guards Carabiniers - Hunt Button
12. Oxford Military College (1876-1896)

and I have a feeling that 11. is something like the Duke of York's staff - but that is only a possible.

Thanks Charlie and Roger for the positive ID of nos. 1 - as being "Pembroke Otter Hunt". I had checked Neil McShane's book on Hunt buttons - but there were no details of the hunt known, so good to get this one ID'ed.

I would very much appreciate any IDs if you recognise any other buttons, it would be good to get them ID'ed at last. I will update the Original post with the ID's, to make it easier for subsequent readers - rather than having to read through all the posts.

Many thanks

Ian

[Cribyn]

Hello Ian

Well you have already identified 3 of the ones I knew, numbers 7, 8 and 12 and I am glad to say we agree on the IDs!

The initials on button number 2 are read in the order 'RCF' (most confusing!) and it is for the "Royal Carmarthen Fusiliers Militia" (shown in Howard Ripley's latest book - "Scottish, Welsh and Channel Islands Militia").

Number 3 is, as you suggested, a so far unidentified "S.....Rifle Volunteers" button (shown in another of Howard's books).

Number 9 is, I suspect, Rhodesia related as Alex said in post 2. Being a small size it may be a general pattern cap or mess button.

Number 10 does indeed have an Indian Army look to it but at the moment I can't place it. I will look a little deeper.

Number 11 is, I was told, a mess waiter's button for the York and Lancaster Regiment but I have not been able to get any further confirmation of this. It could be for the Duke of York's Household but buttons that I have seen that have been confirmed with this ID have all been flat gilt (blazer-like) and with another type of rose orientated differently.

I have got an identical button to your number 6, same maker as well but no idea as to who wore it. Lovely detailed button though!

Regards
Roger

[4966Ian]

Hello Roger,

As you say, glad we both agree on the Ids.

You had me worried regarding button nos. 11 - what with my interest and growing collection of Mess Waiters' Buttons, as I couldn't remember what I had done with it. But fortunately after a panicked search I have now found it - phew! Just in case it does turn out to be a York & Lancaster Regt Mess Waiters Button.

With regards to button nos. 3 - do you remember in which of Howard's books he has shown it - though he was unable to ID it. I had a quick look but couldn't spot it.

Cheers

Ian

[High Wood]

No 10 was worn by 1/12th (Prince of Wales's Own Sikhs) Frontier Force Regiment.

[Cribyn]

Originally Posted by High Wood

No 10 was worn by 1/12th (Prince of Wales's Own Sikhs) Frontier Force Regiment.

Hello High Wood

According to Neville Poulsom's books on Indian Army Buttons, the button used by the 1st Battalion, 12th Frontier Force Regiment 1922-1947 was "Plume of the Prince of Wales. No rim. White metal". Somewhat different from that which Ian has queried as his has a crown, is mounted and in gilt. Always a chance that this is a variant, of course.

Ian

The 'SR' button is illustrated as 409 in 'Rifle Volunteer Buttons' Second Edition of 2007, described as "script initials 'SR' below a crown, silver; white metal".

Roger