Royal Dublin Fusiliers buttons and makers

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by paj1

Hi Guys
A few months ago i got a small group of victorian era RDF items all good
also a number of these buttons
measures 25mm Firmin and sons 153 Strand London & 13 Conduit st
on the back of the buttons
i have been told these are for waiters mess dress
does anyone know if this is correct ?
Julian

Beautiful Officers' Mess 'livery' buttons and worn on a tail coat. These livery coats seem to have had a finite period in fashion and date to the late Victorian and Edwardian period. Those that were left seem to have been put in store in 1914, and generally never taken out again, as after the war everything changed.
The collection of these buttons is a subject in itself and I have never seen or been aware of a collector who specialises in them. As far as I know they have not been recorded outside of button makers pattern books. They are extremely rare (few were made, and not for very long) and would make a wonderful collection. I handled some moth ridden coats, complete with buttons in 1978, in a dusty mess cellar in Northern Germany. They seem always to have been made of plated nickel silver.

[GTB]

Adding to the inventory, but please bear with my atrocious scanning.
The attached buttons formed part of a larger set and were presumably removed from same uniform. Purchased along with other Regimental sets, all Victorian and presumably also similarly removed from uniforms.
Large and small Officers gilt. Spun back.
Large buttons backmark: 'E. STILLWELL & SON. LONDON'
Small buttons backmark: none, a beaded circle

GTB

[jays888]

Originally Posted by davidwyke

Hi

Regarding the two previous posts.

I don't know which company used that design on the back but I have lots of buttons with the same design (military & civilian).

The second button is a bit out of the ordinary as it appears to be brass (usually senior NCO) rather than a gilt officers button.

..i have some of these,if you have anymore info i would appreciate it...especially if you know a rough evaluation,as i cant find any like them..thanks jay

[MH331]

These are other ranks buttons the split rings suggest taken off the KD tunic.

Originally Posted by jays888

..i have some of these,if you have anymore info i would appreciate it...especially if you know a rough evaluation,as i cant find any like them..thanks jay

[davidwyke]

Hi Jay

As Mark says, they are O/R's brass buttons.

Brass regimental buttons for O/R's were phased out during the 1870's and replaced by "general service" buttons - the bottom button on your 4th photo is one of these. Brass regimental buttons were not reintroduced for O/R's until the mid 1920's, after the RDF had been disbanded. (Officers continued to wear gilt regimental buttons throughout the period).

So, in theory, brass KC RDF buttons shouldn't exist. The reason they do is because, in common with quite a few regts, the RDF purchased brass regimental pattern buttons at regimental expense for wear by senior NCO's. These are almost certainly the buttons you have. Although poorer quality than the Officers buttons they are scarcer but not necessarily more valuable!

Incidentally, the other 2 buttons on your 4th photo are Army Physical Training Staff.

Hope this helps?

David

[jays888]

thanks for the info,maybe should get back in the loft and have another dig around....incidentally the buttons were found with this buckle/caribina clasp....any ideas?????

[MH331]

Jay see my answer in this thread

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=45693

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by davidwyke

Hi Jay

As Mark says, they are O/R's brass buttons.

. The reason they do is because, in common with quite a few regts, the RDF purchased brass regimental pattern buttons at regimental expense for wear by senior NCO's.

David

David,

this is certainly the understanding of many collectors. Have you ever come across contemporary confirmation that this actually did happen, that some regiments had regimental pattern buttons made for SNCOs?

I have no reason to doubt the assertion, but would love to find contemporary confirmation of this practice.

For my part I have not found anything thus far.

John

[davidwyke]

Hi John

Unfortunately, I've never been able to find any contemporary documentary evidence which actually proves this practice occurred.

All I can say is that it's generally accepted in button collecting circles as an explanation for the existence of brass regimental buttons during the period when Infantry O/R's should have been wearing general service buttons. It would be hard to come up with any other explanation, it's very unlikely that Officers of the period would have purchased/worn brass buttons.

If you ever come up with any firm evidence I would also love to know!

David

Just a further thought - I think senior WO's (RSM for example) effectively wore Officer pattern uniforms so I suppose it's logical to assume they would wear regimental pattern buttons. But I realise "assume" is a long way from "proof"!

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

David,

this is certainly the understanding of many collectors. Have you ever come across contemporary confirmation that this actually did happen, that some regiments had regimental pattern buttons made for SNCOs?

I have no reason to doubt the assertion, but would love to find contemporary confirmation of this practice.

For my part I have not found anything thus far.

John

I agree with you John. Collar and cap badges for battalion staff yes, but I have seen no evidence of buttons in over 40 years research, etc.
They are such poor quality. Perhaps they were made for officers mess servants in India.

[davidwyke]

John & Toby

Further to the above, Major Parkyn in "Shoulder-Belt Plates and Buttons" (1956) states: "in 1871 the regimental button for other ranks was abolished and replaced by one with the Royal arms except in the case of............ About the same time it became common for NCO's in certain regiments to wear regimental buttons." Unfortunately, there is nothing to indicate where that information was obtained from.

Howard Ripley in "Buttons Of The Regular Army 1855-2000" also states, when discussing the introduction of the "general service" buttons: "Some regimental buttons continued to be produced in brass but they were purchased privately and were not procured by the War Office."

As regards the quality of the brass regimental buttons some are poor quality as Toby mentions but by no means all of them. Many are actually good quality Gaunt & Firmin made buttons which are not far short of Officer quality, other than being brass rather than gilt. To my mind, the quality variation in these buttons - between those worn by different regts and even those worn within the same regt, tends to support the whole theory. There would be no overall quality control, no Sealed Patterns or anything of that sort. The QM or whoever obtained them would purchase what the "purse strings" allowed, perhaps from one of the major manufacturers in this country or they might be sourced locally if the unit was serving overseas.

On reflection, given that the brass buttons would be an unofficial purchase from regimental funds (actually, more likely at battalion level) and were probably obtained and worn without formal WO approval, I'm not really sure what contemporary documentation there is likely to be. Probably at best a purchase order or similar.

David

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by davidwyke

John & Toby

Further to the above, Major Parkyn in "Shoulder-Belt Plates and Buttons" (1956) states: "in 1871 the regimental button for other ranks was abolished and replaced by one with the Royal arms except in the case of............ About the same time it became common for NCO's in certain regiments to wear regimental buttons." Unfortunately, there is nothing to indicate where that information was obtained from.

Howard Ripley in "Buttons Of The Regular Army 1855-2000" also states, when discussing the introduction of the "general service" buttons: "Some regimental buttons continued to be produced in brass but they were purchased privately and were not procured by the War Office."

As regards the quality of the brass regimental buttons some are poor quality as Toby mentions but by no means all of them. Many are actually good quality Gaunt & Firmin made buttons which are not far short of Officer quality, other than being brass rather than gilt. To my mind, the quality variation in these buttons - between those worn by different regts and even those worn within the same regt, tends to support the whole theory. There would be no overall quality control, no Sealed Patterns or anything of that sort. The QM or whoever obtained them would purchase what the "purse strings" allowed, perhaps from one of the major manufacturers in this country or they might be sourced locally if the unit was serving overseas.

On reflection, given that the brass buttons would be an unofficial purchase from regimental funds (actually, more likely at battalion level) and were probably obtained and worn without formal WO approval, I'm not really sure what contemporary documentation there is likely to be. Probably at best a purchase order or similar.

David

That's very interesting David and I agree that it does seem possible, just as you have outlined it. As you say, regrettably documentary evidence does seem unlikely.

[phaethon]

My today's arrival...