1st VB Leicestershire Regiment 1881-1905.

[mooke07]

Hi all,

At last the 1st VB Leicestershire Regiment WM ORs cap badge worn 1881-1905. Lugged and with Gaunt Birmingham plaque to rear. Most pleased. Now looking for the rarer 1905-1908 version with SA scroll replacing the 1st VB scroll.

Regards to all, Dean.

[GriffMJ]

Very nice Dean..... did you find that in Oz?

[mooke07]

No Griff sadly not this time - was happy to purchase from dealer in UK.

Have had a run on badges so stay tuned, regards Dean.

[grenadierguardsman]

Very nice.

['Ticker' Riley]

Hi Dean

Good to see the latest addition to your Leicesters’ collection, and a very nice example it is at that - well done. Much better than the Gladman & Norman reproductions that abound on ebay, such as this one which comes complete with a fake Lambourne & Co. mark on a slider!:

One thing about the date you have for your new badge though is that I think it should be 1902-1908, and not 1881-1905 as you have it. If you remember when you posted up your three lions badge, which the 1st Vol. Battn apparently wore before they adopted the tiger, you made reference to a work by Ray Westlake which gave the dates of that badge as 1895-1902 (incidentally if you could let me have this exact reference I’d be most grateful). I know that it was only from 1901 onwards that volunteer battalions were allowed to wear the cap badges of their parent regiments (see Julian’s posting here ), so 1902 as a start date for these white metal tigers would seem right.

Further, my understanding was that the 1st Vol. Battn badges with the ‘South Africa 1900.02’ top scroll, which as I noted here was only awarded in 1905, were actually officers’ badges - at least the only ones I’ve seen so far are officers’ ones! This does make me wonder what the officers wore before 1905? I suppose it might have been the same as your badge only with blades? Equally I’m not personally aware of any ORs’ badges with the ‘South Africa 1900.02’ on them, so assume they just continued to wear the one like you have - unless someone else knows different of course?!

Anyway, great to see the new badge mate and thanks for sharing it. By the way, if anyone out there has an original 1st Vol. Battn like Dean’s that they are looking to part with please drop me a PM.

Best regards

Martin

[Alan O]

Am I right that this is a VB collar?

[mooke07]

Spot on Alan, I have a pair and so passed on it when you offered it for sale very reasonably, regards Dean.

[Alan O]

Thanks for confirming that I had the ID right. Now I just need to find another Leics enthusiast to sell mine to!

[Deejayuu]

Dean,
is this the badge you are after? I think the SA scrolled badge must be officer quality as it has blades on it. Got these two along with another 4 or 5 Leicesters badges about 10 years ago on ebay! Looking at your badge and my badge they could be twins including the irregular shaped lozenge to the back!!
Cheers, Dave.

[2747andy]

Wow!

Superb badges!

Andy

[mooke07]

Spot on Dave - that is the exact badge and good to see it with lugs as per Martin's discussion on the use of blades.

Ok big breath - is there anything I could swap for it ! Have plenty to offer and would like to build on the family regiments - just PM please - also out of interest what were the other Leicestershire badges?

Thanks for sharing and they are a better pair than most collars !

Regards Dean.

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by 'Ticker' Riley

I know that it was only from 1901 onwards that volunteer battalions were allowed to wear the cap badges of their parent regiments (see Julian’s posting here ),

Nice to see you posting again Martin.

I have a nickel Royal Fusiliers badge, large size but with a Victorian crown. Surely this would pre-date the AO as Queen Victoria died in January 1901?

Keith

[mooke07]

Martin and Julian my thanks for the continued research and insights into the badges of the 1st VB Leicestershire Regiment.

I note from private correspondence and images of some of his badges from Bob (NCC) that the a Officers silver 1st VB collars with Royal Tiger within laurel wreath with a bottom scroll bearing 1st VB Leicestershire as noted in Churchill on page 88 as being adopted post 1902 but as per Martin's post it is post-1906 also bear the Gaunt Birmingham mark.

Regards Dean

['Ticker' Riley]

Hi Dean

I take your point that the OSD Leicesters volunteers’ collar badge that Churchill refers to is unlikely to have been in wear from 1902 onwards, as he says, given what Steppler says about the 1st Vol. Battn only adopting Service Dress in 1906. For reference this is what it says in Britons, To Arms!, p. 110, on the matter:

“The [South Africa] war introduced the use of khaki coloured clothing to the Volunteers, and in 1906 the new ‘khaki' service dress was taken into wear by the 1st Volunteer Battalion, their cyclists having by then already made use of the dull hues of modern war for some time.”

Having said that, I don’t think this has to mean that the Officers’ silver collars like their OSD ones could not have come in earlier, and they may well date from around 1902; which is when the 1st Vol. Battn seem to have adopted the tiger cap badge. Though I do realise that the scroll under these collars is the same as on the cap badges with the ‘South Africa 1900.02’ top scroll, in that they also say ‘1st V.B. Leicestershire’ on them, and that they also have the same ‘J.R.Gaunt & Son Ltd Birm’ back mark, which together might perhaps indicate a date later than 1902 for the collars. Sadly WO 359/21, the Pattern book of 108 designs of badges for Volunteer Regiments, that John looked at, only covers the period 1883-1899. But there may still be something at the United Kingdom’s National Archives that could confirm dates for tiger collars and cap badges for the 1st Vol. Battn of the Leicesters, and if I track it down I’ll be sure to let you know about it.

Best regards

Martin

[KLR]

This is what I had copied out regarding the 1901 directive, but doesn't seem to be verbatim.

359/10, 306 Volunteers Badges & Honours, V/ 1/17/ 221, 22.5.1901
The A.G. decided on, 16.5.1901 that the question of giving honours on account of service in South Africa must stand over until the war is ended.
Also decided that Volunteers may wear the Territorial Badges in white metal & silver but without honours in the case of those badges which have honours attached.

I'm not sure what AG was and fear I might have meant A(rmy) C(ouncil) ???

Yes, I think the SA honours were authorised in 1905 but I can't find the RACD reference at the moment.

Although Churchill often gives RACD references - or at least, dates that can be worked out - he hardly ever gives other references such as the Leics collar one you cite earlier; very frustrating !
I was interested to see that certain VB units did not adopt (bronze) OSD badges until 1906 !