South Irish Horse

[4966Ian]

Hi there,

I think "RG" is the maker's mark for "Robert Garrard" the Royal Jewellers.
I have studied the hallmarks and have convinced myself that the three shields/boxes (left to right) contain a leopards head, a Lion passant and the letter "Q".
If that is the case, this would make it a London hallmark for 1911.
(I found it easier to look at the scan in the first post, rather than the second one which was too blurry).

Ian

[capbadge]

Hey guys,

Bought this badge with a bunch of others, but have no idea if its original since I was alerted that they are heavily faked. Came wih It looks to me like those shiny WW2 cap badges which I can't stand, I personally like a nice old patina but that doesn't mean its a fake- seems to have seen some age and who knows, some of the best original militaria I have seen looks brand new!

Thanks again and let me know, won't be dissapointed either way!


Cheers!

[Neil M.ex14/20H.MAN A.C.F]

Hi looks to me like one of the many repro's you see of this badge,they're very common.
Neil

[connaught]

Have a look at this thread and compare it to the genuine and copy badge.if this is a fake it seems to be better than the majority available on ebay, your badge appears to have a nice crisp striking,the letters are squared and not pointed like the obvious fakes, the veins on the shamrock seem to be very like the real badge with regard to position,if this is a copy it is a worrying trend as it appears to be better than the old ones.John Mulcahy or member Grevisk would be the men to consult on this badge.
Regards,
Connaught.

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...th+irish+horse

[Keith Blakeman]

Here's a good one for comparison. Note the smooth stalk, the veining and thickness of the outer rim.

[capbadge]

So would this be good varient or an excellent fake? This badge came in an "untouched" collection with all original badges, though that doesn't always mean anything. There was some slight corrosion under the badge clip if I recall - still keeping fingers crossed

[Grevisk]

Hi Chris,
I’d just echo the points made above and add this, it has the look of a correct SIH type, the serifs on the letters are square which I’d expect on a correct one. However I’d say it’s far too new looking so falls into the restrike arena. I have seen a steady flow of these style badges over the last ten years or so, they all have the same apearence and for me are just to clean for somthing that should be at least eighty years old!!

Remember this was a small unit with a maximum of three thousand or so men through their ranks. Officers and OR badges were no different from each other!! There were two styles one with a slider and one with loops, the only original ones with loops were solid and not hollow stamped as your example is. Three badges each minimum, one cap and two collar, so in all we’re looking for around ten thousand badges in total, so not many in the grand scheme of things. I’ve no evidence for this other than common sense but the largest striking of SIH badges would have taken place perhaps twice, once in 1902 when they were formed, perhaps 1800 badges in total for the initial issue / purchase by the new members of the unit and the second time late in 1914 or early 1915 when they were recruiting rather heavily. Nearly a thousand men enlisting during this period, all requiring badges.

Anyway I’ve wittered on for long enough, so to answer your question I’d say fake.

[John Mulcahy]

I am in agreement with Doug in his characterization of the badge as a possible reproduction. However the serifs are intriguing.

As you will have gathered it is very, very heavily reproduced. All the known fakes I have seen all have the same features of.

1. Very straight leaf vein lines.
2. Ribs on the stem.
3. Relatively flat outline rim.
4. Pointed serifs, especially the bottom of the “S”.

The problem is if this was ever a genuine strike it has been copied so much as to be untrustworthy.

The lack of the pointed serif on the S in this badge is not something that I have seen, or rather noticed before on obvious reproductions. I do not put as much emphasis on patina as an indicator of the validly of a piece although it does have a role to play. Unfortunately the image has a lot of glare making it seem a very bright piece.

Although the Serifs look good all of the other indicators cast doubt over the badge in my opinion.

I have not spend any time on this unit at the National Archives thus do not know if the pattern was resealed at any point which is sometimes noted when new dies were cut. This data might help determine if more than one die was used throughout the existence of the Regiment.

John

[Grevisk]

Hi John,
Good points and well made.
As to the National Archives, which class of records would I find the pattern sealing information that you mention? The reason I ask is because of my interest in the SIH as a unit and the many many searches I've conducted looking for additional information about the SIH, to date I had not come across any mention of the pattern sealing.

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by Grevisk

Hi John,
Good points and well made.
As to the National Archives, which class of records would I find the pattern sealing information that you mention? The reason I ask is because of my interest in the SIH as a unit and the many many searches I've conducted looking for additional information about the SIH, to date I had not come across any mention of the pattern sealing.

Doug

Look in W0359 the Army Clothing Dept Record of Changes. I do not think you can expect to find the yeomanry regiment details there as as far as I am aware the war office was not responsible for the design, ordering or issue of yeomanry items. However when the regiment became Special Reserve there is a good chance that the WO became responsible for ordering the badges.

vol 14 of WO359 covers the period 1905 - 1909 and in theory should have covered the period when the regiment became The South Irish Horse Special Reserve. I have looked through this volume in some detail and found nothing on the SIH. If the badge was sealed in 1910 you might find something in vol 15 (which I have not personally looked through). You can find special reserve badge sealing data in WO359, I found all the RGA special reserve (The RGA Militia Artillery) units shoulder title details in there as well as the Boer War Special Reserve regiments so there is some hope of finding something in there but 1910 seems a little late to me to me for the SIH.

Also contact KLR on this forum he knows his way around the files far better than I and can probably advise better than I could on where to look for yeomanry or special reserve sealing details.

It may also be worthwhile looking in WO 359 vol 18 this covers 1915 when the WD assumed responsibility of supply from the territorial associations (though the I doubt the regiment came under the TFA authority).

A search of the sealed pattern holdings at the IWM may also prove fruitful.

John

[Grevisk]

Hi John,

Thanks for the additional information, next time I'm in London I'll have a look at the IWM records. I've previously trawled the National Archives in great detail and remember looking up badge patterns for the 8th KRIH and not finding any reference to the SIH, worth another trawl though.

The SIH appear to fall into their own category though, because they were always Special Reserve they seem to have fallen through the gaps in every way when it comes to documentation. Being a short lived unit also has a marked effect.

Thanks for the comments re the pristine badge issue, I guess it’s all down to provenance and documentation then. Sadly we have all too little of either these days.

[Bren39]

Hi All,

Can anyone help with this badge?







Regards Bren

[orasot]

I haven't added anything to my Irish collection for a while now so I was really pleased when this little beauty turned up, Officers cap or collar I assume, brooched but a cracking little badge all the same,
Wilf.

[Tinto]

Very nice, Wilf!
Cheers, Tinto

[21L]

I thought I would add this phot to the forum for member reference. South of Ireland Imperial Yeomanry. A Boer war raised unit 1902-1908.

Gar