Manchester Grammar School ?

[Pembird]

Thank you all for the information, that solves that one!

[Alan O]

I have been after the OTC one for ages. Please PM me if you want to sell it.

Thanks

Alan

[Alan O]

I have been corresponding with the school archivist and was recently sent this photo of the school OTC in 1913. The large OTC badge with the school title around the owl is clealry visible. The OTC was founded in 1910 and closed in 1921 so a short life.

Now the second photo is very interesting as it shows the school cap in use with the lone owl on the school cap. This cap was worn from the 1890s until the 1960s. The metal badge was sewn on. Consequently they are quite common.

I have been throught he WW1 Army lists of MGS OTC teachers and have some potential names for the teacher. I have tried to date the photo and I think it's likely to be the second half of the war. if I can ID the form master then I can date it with more certainty. The interesting thing is that the OTc cadets and the school cap wearing boys are wearing the same badge. So the OTC seem to have run out of the bespoke OTC badge and used the sew on school cap badge in lieu!

[Alan O]

The school archivist has come up with another photo featuring the same officer as in the 1915 photo. It appears to show the whole OTC in their uniforms. I have expanded an area to make the badges more visible.

The design is no longer the one with the cirlse surround shown in the pre-war photo but the same design as the school cap of the lone owl. The officers badge does appear to be darker than the rest so may be bronze.

[manchesters]

Alan,

That begs the question, was there an Owl without circle cap badge produced with slider/loops to wear on the Forage Cap, possibly in GM even?

regards

[Alan O]

I don't think I have ever seen the sole owl one with lugs.

The picture showing the school caps and the OTC caps seem to be identical and the same shade/colour ie white metal. The officers badges do appear to have a dark finish.

I suspect that for reasons of economy they used the school badge for OTC hats in WW1. Unfortunately we will never know for certain and the school does not have a hat in its archives to prove either way.

It would be nice to find another unknown cadet badge but until a brass one turns up with lugs, it's only a hope!

[XXMinden]

The pierced owl found in white metal and in sterling silver was worn initially on the school cap. The cadets wore the gilding metal owl in the title circle from inception until the unit was forced to close in 1923. The owl badges were worn in silver plate by cadet officers on the S.D. Tunic in FACING pairs. The unit started in Long Millgate behind Cheethams school before moving to Fallowfield after the Great War. A air training Corps was formed at this school during WW2. The high master of the school disbanded the OTC as a result of the number of chaps from the school KIA. To this day MGS does not have a cadet unit(CCF). Regarded as one of the best schools in the country.

[Alan O]

Thank you for the observation. The school archivists photos do rather prove that the bespoke OTC badge was not the only badge worn on OTC caps though and the only photo they have of it's use pre-dates 1914-23. Do you have some photos of it is use during that period?

[manchesters]

Originally Posted by XXMinden

The pierced owl found in white metal and in sterling silver was worn initially on the school cap. The cadets wore the gilding metal owl in the title circle from inception until the unit was forced to close in 1923. The owl badges were worn in silver plate by cadet officers on the S.D. Tunic in FACING pairs. The unit started in Long Millgate behind Cheethams school before moving to Fallowfield after the Great War. A air training Corps was formed at this school during WW2. The high master of the school disbanded the OTC as a result of the number of chaps from the school KIA. To this day MGS does not have a cadet unit(CCF). Regarded as one of the best schools in the country.

I assume you mean collar badges by the words FACING pairs? Is that correct?

I have never seen any collar badges for the MGS OTC, can you show pictures of the badges or them in use on SD please.

regards

[Alan O]

All 4 officers in the group photo above appear to be wearing single owls as cap and as collar badges. I did go through the Army list and as the photo shows all officers it can only be 1915,17 or 18 as prior to 1914 the OTC only had 2 officers in it.

Whether the owls on the collars are 'facing' is unclear as the image is not high enough resolution but I have only ever seen owl badges with them facing one way.

Alan

[manchesters]

Thanks Alan, I couldnt actually make those out.

Are they 'single' owls without the circle?

If so I have never seen any collar badges (not sew on ) either facing or matching, ever!

regards

[Alan O]

Yes they are definitely single owls on both the caps and collars. Absolutely no chance that they are the circular badge seen in the pre war photo.

[Alan O]

I would also point out that there were only 2 officers before the war and about 4 in the war years. I have not accessed the Army List for 1919-23 but I doubt that there were than many more. Assuming that they only needed one tunic each then that's not a lot of collar badges in existence and certainly not many to have a bespoke left facing collar made.

[manchesters]

Originally Posted by Alan O

I would also point out that there were only 2 officers before the war and about 4 in the war years. I have not accessed the Army List for 1919-23 but I doubt that there were than many more. Assuming that they only needed one tunic each then that's not a lot of collar badges in existence and certainly not many to have a bespoke left facing collar made.

And surely OSD collars would be Bronze not Silver.

regards

[Alan O]

All rules are only guidelines as far as cadet units go so I can't assume that a bronze badge existed. If one did then there may have been less than 10 of them!