Gloucestershire Regiment Cap Badge Quiz

[hagwalther]

Hi Guys,

Picked this one up at the Hop Farm meeting in Kent last month.

What part of the design of this badge makes it an item of interest?

No prize but kudos if you get it right.

My money is on KLR to be the first with the correct answer.

Regards

Chris

[jim a]

anodised cast badge would be my guess... Jim

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by jim a

anodised cast badge would be my guess... Jim

Hi Jim,

The badge is certainly anodised but no genuine badges were cast either by open or die casting. This is a genuine badge OK by London Badge & Button Co Ltd.

Regards

Chris

[badgecollector]

hi chris
the only thing i can see is that it seems to be uni face strike. no rear detail at all. where as all the ones ive seen (and thats not many) has the reverse strike also
or is it something to do with the manufacturer? mine are all j.r.gaunt b'ham
bc

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by badgecollector

hi chris
the only thing i can see is that it seems to be uni face strike. no rear detail at all. where as all the ones ive seen (and thats not many) has the reverse strike also
or is it something to do with the manufacturer? mine are all j.r.gaunt b'ham
bc

Hi BC,

The rear is pretty plain but that's fine - the obverse contours of the badge are pretty flat for this badge so the reverse or punch die does not need to force the aluminum sheet into the obverse die much to capture them. As such, the reverse die can be made pretty much flat which keeps the cost of cutting such a die down.

It is something to do with the manufacturer and some specific details on the front of the badge. And of course, timing is everything...

Regards

Chris

[grey_green_acorn]

Is it a male face on an obviously female sphinx?

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by grey_green_acorn

It a male face on an obviously female sphinx?

Not the Sphinx itself but more to do partly with the design of what the Sphinx is sitting on and also partly the design of the scroll. This design feature together with the time line of manufacturing of the London Badge & Button Co Ltd being from 1973 to current is the secret to this but what is this design feature that makes this badge interesting?

Regards

Chris

[54Bty]

The 'Pebbles' maybe?

[dubaiguy]

Chris
I'll give it a go. The 'stippling' in the Egypt tablet looks like it is a kind of cross hatching and made with straight lines scribed at a diagonal (like a series of x's), whereas the stippling in the scroll is more or less what you would expect and is more random.

I'm not sure if stippling is the correct word - perhaps pebbledashing or was that what 54Bty was refering to.....................!?!

I'm I getting warm?

Mark

[hagwalther]

Hi 54Bty, Mark.

You are both on the right path so lets expand the answer some more. The effect you are both talking about is known as seeding.

Attached is an image of a pair of Kings Regt (Liverpool)/Liverpool University OTC badges. They are similar but have a few differences with the main one being that one badge has the seeding in the scroll and the other does not.

While there are always differences in badges at manufacturing level this seeding and later the lack of seeding was by official request.

So:

a) Why were later badges made without seeding in the scrolls?

b) When did this change of seeding to non seeding occur?

c) From what we know of the London Badge & Button Company why is the Gloucestershire Regiment badge shown in this thread interesting?

Regards

Chris

[54Bty]

[QUOTE=hagwalther;
So:

a) Why were later badges made without seeding in the scrolls?

b) When did this change of seeding to non seeding occur?
[/QUOTE]

a) To make the wording more distinct.
b) For the RA badges by 1981.

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by 54Bty

a) To make the wording more distinct.

54Bty has got it. Seeding became an issue as far back as 1958 being raised by Gaunt in a letter to Lt Col Arnold in the war office. This was an issue with anodized badges in which characters in seeded scrolls etc. did not stand out due to brigtness nature of an anodised aluminium cap badge. As the existing seeded scrolls were already hardened for production they could not be changed and so new dies had to be cut with the seeding removed.

By 1964, new dies were in fact cut for the cap badges of the Royal Lincolnshire Regiment and the 4th/7th Dragoon Guards with seeding removed and this became the norm from then on.

Rule of thumb - anodised badges with seeding are older than the corresponding badge without.

BUT - our Gloucestershire badge by the London Badge & Button Co Ltd has seeding so why is this unusual?

Regards

Chris

[bess55]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

54Bty has got it. Seeding became an issue as far back as 1958 being raised by Gaunt in a letter to Lt Col Arnold in the war office. This was an issue with anodized badges in which characters in seeded scrolls etc. did not stand out due to brigtness nature of an anodised aluminium cap badge. As the existing seeded scrolls were already hardened for production they could not be changed and so new dies had to be cut with the seeding removed.

By 1964, new dies were in fact cut for the cap badges of the Royal Lincolnshire Regiment and the 4th/7th Dragoon Guards with seeding removed and this became the norm from then on.

Rule of thumb - anodised badges with seeding are older than the corresponding badge without.

BUT - our Gloucestershire badge by the London Badge & Button Co Ltd has seeding so why is this unusual?

Regards

Chris

Hi Gents,
My observations are for what they're worth.

Chris, I also have an example of this badge. When you think about it the London Badge & Button company must have been just about the last manufacturer of this badge as the Regiment disbanded and merged with the (then) new Duke of Edinburghs Regt in 1994. As we have discussed in other threads, the Regiment now survives within the ranks of 1 Rifles - retaining the rear badge. (having got there via the GB&W Regt and Light Division)

I have several anodised examples of this badge including about half a dozen differant rear badges. All of these badges have the usual seeding behind the EGYPT tablet and the scroll - by that I mean the random 'sand' effect.

However on the LB&B company example, the random effect is seen in the scroll but the EGYPT tablet has a more computer generated linear effect in the seeding. This is seen on other badges, the only one that springs to mind is on some later RAOC examples - again what I can only describe as computer generated formal appearance.

Other anodised Gloucestershire examples I have are;-

JR GAUNT Birmingham (2 differant types, clearly differant dies also with totally differant font on the lettering)

Dowler Birmingham

Smith & Wright Ltd (nice early example)

Grove MFG - metal slider

Firmin London

Also an example with odd flat lugs that appear to have the hole drilled through - probably a belt badge, however I have a rear badge with the same flat lug (?)


Also several differant die rear badges, both silver and gold.


Best regards all

Bess

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by bess55

Hi Gents,
My observations are for what they're worth.

Chris, I also have an example of this badge. When you think about it the London Badge & Button company must have been just about the last manufacturer of this badge as the Regiment disbanded and merged with the (then) new Duke of Edinburghs Regt in 1994. As we have discussed in other threads, the Regiment now survives within the ranks of 1 Rifles - retaining the rear badge. (having got there via the GB&W Regt and Light Division)

I have several anodised examples of this badge including about half a dozen differant rear badges. All of these badges have the usual seeding behind the EGYPT tablet and the scroll - by that I mean the random 'sand' effect.

However on the LB&B company example, the random effect is seen in the scroll but the EGYPT tablet has a more computer generated linear effect in the seeding. This is seen on other badges, the only one that springs to mind is on some later RAOC examples - again what I can only describe as computer generated formal appearance.

Other anodised Gloucestershire examples I have are;-

JR GAUNT Birmingham (2 differant types, clearly differant dies also with totally differant font on the lettering)

Dowler Birmingham

Smith & Wright Ltd (nice early example)

Grove MFG - metal slider

Firmin London

Also an example with odd flat lugs that appear to have the hole drilled through - probably a belt badge, however I have a rear badge with the same flat lug (?)


Also several differant die rear badges, both silver and gold.


Best regards all

Bess

Hi Bess,

You have stolen my thunder a bit (well done) but the main point of this badge is this.

The London Badge and Button Co Ltd started trading in 1973 and by this date no badges should have contained seeded scrolls etc. So why does this one? When I realized who had made it my interest in the badge switched on immediately.

Basically it must have squeezed in under the radar of initial impressions pre die hardening and final inspection after hardening. I wonder what other ones are out there of modern manufacture but still with seeding?

The following may also be of interest:

Look back to this thread and note my remarks on the wearing of the Wessex badge by Gloucestershire personnel after the Royal Regiment of Gloucestershire and Hampshire went tits up. Post #24 of:

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...mpshire&page=3

This was probably of the first batch of badges made to replace the Wessex badge.

In all, lots to see and all this from a three pound badge.

By the way - computer generated seeding etc. Just read an article from Toye, Kenning and Spencer and all die cutting or die sinking as it is known is still done by hand.

Also, Bess - send you an email re: silver Intelligence Corp badge - did you get it?

Regards

Chris

[bess55]

Chris,
I've had a quick scan through my badges and what I do have is a RRW with a seeded scroll and it has an LB&B company mark on the rear. I also have this in all gold (makers error no doubt and this too is seeded). Most RRW badges you find are not seeded behind the ICH DIEN in the scroll.

I know that when first formed, the Royal Welsh Regt wore the RRW badge for a while with a differant shaped green backing before the issue of the newly designed badge. I dont know if anyone knows if this has any links to the seeded - non seeded issue with this badge?

Either way, you may well be onto something there Chris.

Have replied to your email too mate

Regards all

Bess