Queen's all brass badge

[GTB]

I would appreciate confirmation as to whether the all brass economy Queen's Regt badge and the all brass (or gilding-metal) badges of the 22nd & 24th County of London Bns are one and the same. If so, would the need for a Sealed Pattern be negated in the case of the economy version?
The attached badge was slidered.
GTB

[KLR]

The "all GM" (which is how the WO referred to them) cap badge for the Queen's Regt certainly has a different Pattern number.
The TF "all GM" badges had new Pattern numbers too but I think 22nd and 24th probably had the same pattern - I can check when I'm in front of my files tonight.

[GTB]

Originally Posted by KLR

The "all GM" (which is how the WO referred to them) cap badge for the Queen's Regt certainly has a different Pattern number.
The TF "all GM" badges had new Pattern numbers too but I think 22nd and 24th probably had the same pattern - I can check when I'm in front of my files tonight.

Thanks, KLR.
I don't doubt that the bi-metal and the all gilding-metal badges would have separate pattern numbers. Would there be 3/4 patterns? (a) bi-metal regular issue (b) all GM economy issue (c & d) all GM 22nd & 24th Bns London Regt.
On a separate matter, I have seen so much confusion concerning the versions used for the 22nd & 24th Bns that I am unsure which is which. K&K mention all GM but i find unqueried bi-metal versions all over the forum!
GTB

[KLR]

I've been through all the WO records for these things but I don't have my notes here at work. As I said, I think the 22 and 24 used the same Pattern, but I'll check tonight.
As for which 'versions' / 'types' of Queen's badges were used for eg the 1916 issues I can't tell you. All I can say is that a WO Pattern can come in a large variation of 'types' which I suspect are mostly differing manufacturers styles BUT all broadly within the authorised design. As an example I have about 30 slightly differing King's Regt cap badges that all conform to WO Pattern 4362A/1896..

[KLR]

Yes, the 1916 all GM Pattern Queen's Regt badge was used by the regular battalions and by the 22nd and 24th London Regt. In 1916, 20,000 of them were made (I do not have any details for any later orders).
In 1919 the regulars at least (don't know about Lon Rgt), will have reverted to the original 1898 bi-metal pattern - but which only remained in use up to June 1924 when a new pattern was introduced (similar but without scroll).

[GTB]

Thanks, KLR, so let me recap and correct me if I'm wrong.
1898-1924: issue of bi-metal pattern for regular Regiment
1908-?: issue of all-GM pattern for 22nd & 24th Bns. London Regt (apparently regular pattern also introduced at some date but have no relevant information)
1916-19: issue of all-GM pattern for regular Regiment (or should this be "issue of 1908 pattern")?
Appreciate any help in the interest of being true to the collection.
GTB

[KLR]

Hello GTB, that's a good question.
The answer however, is problematic because until 1915 all TF units procured their own insignia and we're not sure if they had any sort off official "Pattern Number" - there's certainly no evidence that we know of. It was only in 1915 that the WO (RACD) took over such provision and from then there are numbers; firstly 3 digits (and date) then in 1916 (or occ '17) 4 digits (as in usual RACD procedures). In the case of 22 and 24 London they might have used the Qns Patt no - or had their own numbers. Somewhere deep in my notes I think I might have this info but as I'm away for a few days it will have to wait I'm afraid.
But the 1916 all GM Pattern - for both Qns and Lon Bns - were exactly that: 1916.
There is a vague logic to this and I'll try and sort it out for you when I can.

[Alan O]

I have yet to see a photo of pre-war 22 or 24 London soldier wearing an all brass badge and it would make no sense for them to do so.

Could K&K have got this wrong?

Missing from the list is the w/m version. Bosleys has an all wm badge attributed to the pre1908 militia bn.

[KLR]

I don't know much about London badges but yes, I had assumed that 22 / 24 wore "regular" BM badges from 1908 to 1916. I didn't know what K&K said about them - I prefer 1st rather than 2nd hand sources !
The WM might have been militia or 'walking out' for TF Bns.

[GTB]

Great! Thankyou both, KLR and Alan. Your answers are along the line I expected and their general substance will be included in a theory/hypothesis of mine in another thread (Military Foot Police). There will be a little repetition but no matter.
Before continuing, I wish to make it clear that it is not my intention to criticise K & K for any errors - the invaluable content of their work by far outweighs any that may be perceived. But I have noticed inconsistencies in description and attendant photographs, although this may be a result of lighting.
I have also come across different pattern (all-GM and bi-metal) 22nd & 24th Bn badges in collections, and captioned as such, and I have concluded that this is so because K & K Vols 1 and 2 specify this. BUT these two patterns both have the same reference number (1854)!!
Talk again
GTB

[GTB]

KLR,
I was formulating my reply to your earlier message and only noticed your recent reply after posting.
GTB

[2747andy]

GTB,
there are a few patterns (maker or die variations) of this ubiquitous "Queen's" all Gm badge, I'll post a few later in the week!

Andy

[Keith Blakeman]

There is absolutely no difference between a Queen's badge or a 22nd/24th London whether bi-metal or all g/m. It's a dupe on the part of a seller to try and get a higher price for a territorial badge.

Any difference is down to makers variations plain and simple.

[2747andy]

Not often we agree by Keith has hit the nail on the head!

Andy

[Silver Tourist]

Good evening.

And, by contrast, at the other end of the scale is the hallmarked silver version. I wonder who wore that?

I wonder, he said ironically, whether there is a serarate Pattern Number for such an example?

As ever, sitting on the desk next to me.

Enjoy.

S.T.