Dies, life expectancy?

[2747andy]

Sorry, I should have said back part, meddling with sex always has it's probems! lol

Andy

[Neibelungen]

It's always facinating (or at least top me) at just how random and unrefined the backs and sides of period dies are compared to a modern die.

They seem to have taken a lump of metal roughly the right size and used it, often forging it to shape after anealing and still red hot and maleable.

There doesn't seem to be any consistent plan of workholding or clamping system that you would find with a modern dies (collars, shoes, bolster plates etc).

[btns]

Originally Posted by Neibelungen

It's always facinating (or at least top me) at just how random and unrefined the backs and sides of period dies are compared to a modern die.

They seem to have taken a lump of metal roughly the right size and used it, often forging it to shape after anealing and still red hot and maleable.

There doesn't seem to be any consistent plan of workholding or clamping system that you would find with a modern dies (collars, shoes, bolster plates etc).

picture 1: A clamping system for dies? Who needs a clamping system?

pictures 2 & 3: backview of a repaired die. It has another die for an unidentified livery button as a base. Does anyone recognise the coat of arms?

[GriffMJ]

Btns

The button is a Baron's coat of arms and has silver and red hatching (Possibly Lord of Hanslope).

Thats the clamping system the Neibelungen describes, for the die repair, in his post isnt it The cracks would still be visible in the end product.... but at least there is still an end product.... because of the repair.

Below is an example of what looks like a die repair and continued production?

[Charlie585]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Ry,
you are quite right! Having dug out my boxes of R.E. badges, the GvR and EviiR officers dress badges appear to be Gilt. The first S&G Example being GviR! I also dug out my GvR OSDs and I'm now pretty sure the die is female (?) and with the space between the the upper loops of the G & R and the inner edge of the garter strap, it's almost certainly for a c.1916 All Gm Economy badge?

Thanks for making me do my homework, it turns outs to be even more interesting than just a desk paperweight, considering my interest in E.I. badges!

Best regards

Andy

Glad you have identified it Andy,

It does seem to be the Economy badge doesn't it. so yes a bonus given your interest.
It does leave me wondering though if I might have been mistaken having turned my nose up in the past at RE Econ badges with poor rear definition!

A great thread and one I've enjoyed learning from

Ry

[rexb]

Originally Posted by btns

picture 1: A clamping system for dies? Who needs a clamping system?

pictures 2 & 3: backview of a repaired die. It has another die for an unidentified livery button as a base. Does anyone recognise the coat of arms?

From a quick trawl of the web, and assuming the German heraldic coronet for barons is similar to ours, it is Baron Gunther Hubertus von Reibnitz.

Rex

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by rexb

From a quick trawl of the web, and assuming the German heraldic coronet for barons is similar to ours, it is Baron Gunther Hubertus von Reibnitz.

Rex

Rex

Good spot .... the father of Princess Michael of Kent..... you can see it in the marriage arms to the Prince

[btns]

Thank you very much for your efforts.
The coronet as shown on the small size livery buttons is used in British heraldy only.

Wikipedia has the two shapes for a German Baron's coronet: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiherr.

Unfortunately I cannot date this repaired die. The oldest livery dies in this museum collection date from the 1820s and the youngest is from the 1920/1930s.


GriffM:
...Thats the clamping system the Neibelungen describe ...
My picture shows a 19th century manufacturing process, i.e. no steam, no gas motor, no drive belts. The upper male die is a clamped in cast iron wedge with a blob of lead or copper on its tip, the bottom, female die is handheld by the operator's left hand. In his right hand is a tool for picking the button shell from the die.
Neibelungen informs us on 20th century manufacturing, probably with two stroke friction presses.


.. The cracks would still be visible in the end product ..
reply: Yes they do. On smooth surfaces they may be polished.
The cracks in your P.O.W. feathers' die are either from quenching or stress related.

[GriffMJ]

Btns

The shield shape on the button die is normally 1800s..

The clamp around the die ..... I meant that it was there to provide support for the broken/cracked die?

[btns]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Btns

The clamp around the die ..... I meant that it was there to provide support for the broken/cracked die?

Yes, the clamp on that picture has been wrought all around two dies. One (not shown) was the one to be sent to the non UK party who ordered a batch of buttons and the die. The other one (shown) supplies a flat base needed for manufacturing. This must have been an obsolete die.

[dumdum]

I have seen one "clamp" (or "collar" I think it was called) that was a hopelessly optimistic piece of brass pipe with a soft-soldered line running down one edge.

Also have a photo somewhere of a Victorian fire brigade service bar that had had a heavy piece of rectangular steel laboriously cut, filed and shrunk around the cracked die.....