13th Hussars Z scroll badge

[tonyb]

This one arrived this morning, it is maker marked J.R Gaunt London to both the rear of the badge and the slider.
There seems to be a 'scar' at the bottom behind the slider, possibly where a lug was removed?
Previous threads confirm this 13th Z scroll badge was worn by Officers in Peaked and Side caps.
The 'factory' conversion to a slider would suggest this could have been also worn by ORs.
Any thoughts?
Tony.

[Alan O]

Tony

The pre-WW1 Dress regs suggest that this was the Officers cap badge for peaked caps and side caps as well. The wreath badge was intended for wear on the Foreign Service Helmet and worn on peaked caps by the other ranks.
This shows it in use in the 1920s ; probably after amalgamation but before the QMO (5-bar gate) badge was introduced. https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...038#post462038
Alan

[Voltigeur]

After reading these posts,I tought it would be interesting to find photos of members of this unit....These are the only good ones found.
Jo


© IWM (HU 116349) Lieutenant John Arthur Jeffrey MC. 13th Hussars.




© IWM (HU 127543) Lieutenant Basil Williams. 13th Hussars.




This last one is identified,by the IWM, as 13th Hussars....

© IWM (HU 125132) Second Lieutenant Ernest Victor Rolfe. 13th Hussars. Death: 05 March 1917 Killed at Lajj Mesopotamia.Son of Ernest and Margaret Rolfe, of 16, Royal Crescent, Edinburgh.



© IWM (HU 120640)
Private Thomas Crouch 2898. 13th Hussars. Death: 05 March 1917 Killed in action at Lajj Mesopotamia





© IWM (HU 123469)
Lance Corporal Charles H. Kennington, 11936.13th Hussars.Death: 05 March 1917, missing in action at Lajj, Mesopotamia.

[Hoot]

2Lt Rolfe, Lovat Scouts. Perhaps he later transferred to the 13th Hussars.

[Voltigeur]

Originally Posted by Hoot

2Lt Rolfe, Lovat Scouts. Perhaps he later transferred to the 13th Hussars.

Thank you Hoot for the update.
Jo

[Alan O]

http://www.lightdragoons.org.uk/downloads.html

If you read the 13th Hussars Vol 2 PDF published 911 it records the Officers 'Z' badge in bronze in 1904 whilst it shows a picture of the 'Private's badge' as the wreath and crown badge.

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/force...07officers.htm

A photo from 1907 showing the officers wearing the officer's Z cap badge worn by officers. The ORs are all still wearing the badge less pill box caps that were supposed to have been replaced by the Brodrick. However the trumpeter at bottom left wears a peaked cap with the full wreath ORs badge shown in the sketch above. This was also worn by WOs.

The Khaki FSH was worn with a diamond patch on the side in regtl colours and the wreath badge in white ceremonial FSH.

The regt had also worn side caps alongside the pill box caps circa 1900 but all of the photos that I can find show them to be badgeless or the wreath badge. Any badge worn at this time would be lugged.

The regt certainly had dallied with the Brodrick with the wreath badge in UK c.1903/4 but has abandoned it in India some 2 years later in favour of the obsolete pillbox.

So to summarise OR's badge use was:

1890s-c1900 - badgeless pill box or side cap with the XIII wreath badge. The FSH was also authorised to be worn with a QVC wreath pugaree badge.
1900-02 - South Africa in khaki FSH the regt wore a cloth diamond bi-colour patch in South Africa up to 1902.
1903-04 - Aldershot/Shorncliffe - Brodrick/ side cap with wreath badge.
1904-14 - Return to pill box caps on return to India. FSH are again worn with cloth patches. Alongside this WOs and Band wore the peaked cap with wreath badge. At some point post 1907 pill box caps were replaced by peaked caps with the wreath badge.
1914-22 - The khaki peaked cap with wreath badge was worn. I have seen photos 1921 with the wreath badge clearly in use.
1922-? 13th Hussars Z type cap badge previously worn by officers only.
192?-38 - 13th/18th QMO (5 bar gate)
1938 - 13th/18th 2nd pattern. Sealed pattern card in IWM id for: /Cav/2687 18/10/38;

[Frank Kelley]

I would have thought from the photographs that this particular example is a die cast officers badge that started life as a collar, the original rankers badges are very finely die struck from thin gilding metal.

Originally Posted by tonyb

This one arrived this morning, it is maker marked J.R Gaunt London to both the rear of the badge and the slider.
There seems to be a 'scar' at the bottom behind the slider, possibly where a lug was removed?
Previous threads confirm this 13th Z scroll badge was worn by Officers in Peaked and Side caps.
The 'factory' conversion to a slider would suggest this could have been also worn by ORs.
Any thoughts?
Tony.

[Alan O]

Tony

I would agree that the cast brass badge is from the same die that Gaunt used for the officers caps and collars. The assumption is that they were regimentally sourced hence the makers' name being on them.

However I cannot agree that the original ORs ones were the thin die struck ones that you see in the Marsh catalogue and available on ebay in huge numbers.

Alan

[Luke H]

I would agree with Alan. Yet to seen a die stamped Z badge I would regards as original. As Alan rightly points out the Marsh fake is die stamped.

[Frank Kelley]

So reading between the lines, it appears to be suggested in this thread that the rank and file all wore officers die cast cap badges and collars, if that was the case, why are they so scarce and where exactly does that information come from?

Originally Posted by Alan O

Tony

I would agree that the cast brass badge is from the same die that Gaunt used for the officers caps and collars. The assumption is that they were regimentally sourced hence the makers' name being on them.

However I cannot agree that the original ORs ones were the thin die struck ones that you see in the Marsh catalogue and available on ebay in huge numbers.

Alan

Originally Posted by Luke H

I would agree with Alan. Yet to seen a die stamped Z badge I would regards as original. As Alan rightly points out the Marsh fake is die stamped.

[Alan O]

There are 2 photos on the forum dating from after 1922 showing the Z type cap badge in use by the newly amalgamated regiment. They are so scare because the practice only lasted a few years before the '5-bar gate' QMO badge came into use. Cavalry regiments were relatively small and it's possible that A Sqn continued to wear the old 18th Hussars badge which would reduce the numbers of badges worn. The die cast ones are as relatively scarce as the QMO successor badges.

I should point out that they are not the officers badges as they were bronzed and the ORs badges made by Gaunt are fitted with vertical shanks rather than the blades seen on Officers' cap badges.

Alan