What would you do?

[Bill A]

Situation: A lot of badges and some medals were purchased from the veteran, who expressed that no one in the family was interested in this stuff. The purchaser checked and asked again, was he sure that no one wanted them? Again, the vet insisted the collector take the material. A sum of money was exchanged and the collector left. (Notes. 1. The vet did not, at that time have any obvious mental health issues, and though his health was not the best, he was not failing. 2. The collector paid more than a fair sum for the material that he purchased. The vet was not in financial straights. 3. No reciept was obtained at the time of the purchase.)
About three years later, the collector noted that the vet had passed away. Fast forward about another 6 months. The collector receives a phone call from a daughter of the vet, enquiring if the collector had the badges and medals that were purchased from her father. She wanted them back.
What is the appropriate response to the request?

[Voltigeur]

Bill, If I were the person that purchased the collection I would say to the daughter " I'm sorry but, I did an honest transaction with your father and I disposed of some of the items". Have a good day. That's all I would say.
Probably someone told the daughter that she could get a lot more money for the collection, that her father got ripped off by some lousy heartless dealer blah blah blah.


Jo

[orasot]

2 options in my view, if she's a gold digger just wanting to get them to sell on, then I'd say sorry, they got sold on. If she really wanted them to keep in the family then I'd sell them back, but how do you establish her true motives ?? Things like that belong with the family if they truly want them, there could be grandkids involved. I know someone that got back a family MM from a collector & he sold it back for what he paid, & I know how much it means to her. But then, we're all different aren't we ? Some might say - stuff it, they're mine now !!! Cheers, Wilf.

Hi Bill,
ditto! He sold them, the transaction couldn't have been fairer. I understand she may regret but if she is an honest woman (and I don't doubt she is!) she would propose you to buy the lot for the same price as it was sold to you.
One more point: you bought them, you didn't steal them. As such, I believe it is also your right to decide whether you agree or not to sell them or keep them.
I understand it may be one of the only material things that links her to her relative but on the other hand, there was an honest and fair transaction between you and the vet and she must respect that!
Cheers
Phil

[Bill A]

Clarification: This happened to another collector, not me.
As indicated, most people would agree that once sold, it is the owner's decision what to do with the material. Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

[WJ Miller]

I think Wilf hit the nail on the head, what's her motivation? The specific reason for her change of her will determine the response.

I think the big, big, huge, mega-huge mistake here is to not get a receipt!!! The most sure fire way to have a transaction (any transaction) bite you in the ass is to not get it in writing.

I have been offered items (both given away and for sale) from several veterans over the years and it always makes me uncomfortable. In the back of my mind I know this will only cause consternation on the part of other family members, who may feel slighted. I have turned down more items than I have accepted, just because I don't wish to end up in the middle of a family squabble. Also, I have a preference to see these items, whatever they may be, stay in the family. Those I have accepted, I have always gotten the transaction in writing (or on tape, in the case of people I was interviewing). Two very good reasons to do this, proof of transfer of ownership and provenance.

Back to your example. Why does she want it back? If it is she feels wronged from an inheritance, well too bad for her. Usually, that has its roots in a family struggle between surviving siblings. On the other hand she may be a part of the family that wants to connect or reconnect with family "history".

I once interviewed the daughter of a long deceased 1CACR vet. She was a little reluctant to meet me at first since she herself did not have the warm fuzzies towards her "dear" old Dad and especially anything to do with the war. She had issues with his personality and coldness as a father, some of which she attributed to his service. However, she was willing to help me out and provide what little info she knew about her Dad's service and a few photos. We had a morning long chat about her Dad, the "Kangaroos", war and the ill effects on veterans, my own experiences with my Dad, etc... in the end she came away with a different perspective on her Dad's life than she did previous to our meeting. I have had several email exchanges with her since then and both she and her siblings have all had time to think some of their feelings over and have in her words "softened" thier image of their Dad. For once she had had the opportunity to walk a mile in his moccassins, in retrospect, some of his behaviour and personality was understandable and perhaps even excusable.

Anyway, long story short, the Daughter and her family in your example might have a legitimate and honourable reason for retrieving the items, but then that negotiation could put the collector in a bit of a quandry!?

I know I have several items I don't think I would or could let go back to the original family, no matter how good their intentions. Perhaps that is selfish on my part, I don't know. As a serious collector, the reason I have collected the item, might be just too dear for me to part with the item. I would hope that in that case the family would understand my intentions and motivations and be happy that said item(s) are in good and loving hands.

On the other hand, I have some "stuff" that could easily go back to the families if they wanted it!

[wfrad]

It may be wise for said collector to give receipts in future to show that he paid a fair price for the items.
As for the lady in question, the medals were her fathers to sell regardless of his situation.
Speaking from experience, something similar happened to me and I just had to accept the simple fact that I had no say in the matter.
By what you say the collector has no need to feel guilty.

I'm just amazed about how people feel regarding what was in their family before. It's like if her father had sold his car to the collector and his daughter now asks him to give the car back. Really astounding behaviour!

[Bwetdude]

My toughts on the subject is "All Sales are Final".

People don't get that collectors are not Pawn Shops...

Now even if we were, you can't really expect to get your TV back 6 months later.

Your friend could help her out by making a list of what she could "hunt" down to put her father's ensemble back together. Or not... if she wants to get legal and stuff...

How did she get the phone number anyway?

[bewley]

She should of cared more when her father was still alive [it took her over 3 years to realise he had sold them for cris sake!].

[TRT]

Hmmmm..

Interesting question. I bought a pair of medals from a dealer over ten years ago. The recipient was a Somme casualty and his name was inscribed on the Thiepval memorial. (at this stage note I buy medals / badges/ militaria from WW1 purely to collect and not profit etc...all items in my collection are special to me)

I listed him on a thread on another forum and then a year or so later I got a pm saying that the member was in contact with the family of the soldier and they would very much like the medals as the soldiers son was still alive and it would be fantastic to present them to him.

I eventually corrisponded with the family and through info they sent I was convinced they were relatives. I agreed to sell the medals simply at market price to them so I could buy a similar group. I even offered to buy a genuine WW1 era cap badge to accompany the group so they could frame and present in time for Xmas. They accepted this and I bought the badge and set a price (realistic based on current prices and no profit sought or exorbitant price asked).

I never heard a thing again form them which really suprised me and irritated me. Even if I was asking too much I would have negoitiated because the thought of returning them to a family who cared would have been great.

Oh well......

Thought I would share this.

Regards

TRT

[Unknownsoldier]

My feeling is "TS", you wouldn't try it with your Grandfathers house or car.... so why with a medal/badge etc. he sold them to you, you now own them, he was "compus mentus", surely end of?????

Tom

[WJ Miller]

"TS" for sure but...

I would not underestimate the depth of emotional investment and personality attached to war medals, badges, pins, etc... As the non-familial collector, you have no idea what back story and family dynamics/politics there may be involved as the items in questions pass hands. You might have only known the veteran in question for a few hours, days, months or maybe a few years. Most likely, you simply do not have a half century or more of hurt feelings, petty squabbles and unkind indifferences between you and said veteran. Undoubtedly, as a the non-familial collector do not share the emotional baggage that is probably attached to the war memorabilia.

Also, thus far this thread also assumes that this example Dad didn't have "odd" motivations/poor judgement of his own for selling the medals. BillA states that the collector "checked and asked again", but did he really contact everyone in the family? Maybe the Dad was your garden variety, insensitive jerk. (Oh well, at the end of the day they were his medals to get rid of). He may have been innocently trying to avoid a squabble among siblings over his possessions? One set of medals doesn't split well between 2 or more children. Though I am aware of families that do parcel out individual medals (a very bad idea IMHO for many reasons... won't that lead to some bad blood when little Suzie gets the DFC and Brother Johnny only got the 39-45 star?! Dad always did like you best). Maybe the old codger was broke and too proud to ask his kids for money?

Playing a bit of devil's advocate here, but my point is this, how many times have we heard the phrase, "Dad/Grandad never talked about the war". It could be some family members have no idea of the significance (or even the existence) of the items and probably didn't know how to broach the subject. I have also heard many veterans say to me, "the kids aren't interested/don't care/don't know". Most of what is going on is a failure or inability to communicate. Growing up in my household, the unwritten rule was "you don't ask Dad about the war". For 40 years he kept his medals, ribbons and badges wadded up in ball in a box at the back of my parents closet. My Dad was always proud of his service and ultimately his medals but there was also a lot of painful memories associated with them.

A death in the family and the settling of estates can bring out the worst in families. War medals are way more personal than a car you traded in or a power drill you pawned. I'd think twice before inadvertently stepping in the middle of some crazy family politics. Oh, and did I mention? Get a receipt!!! The likelihood of a potential legal dispute is directly proportional to the value of the medals (and perhaps the weight of the emotional baggage).

BillM.

Bill,


you started your post by dealing with "the depth of emotional investment and personality attached to war medals, badges, pins, etc...". I can assure I'm a very good example, regarding to my personal family experience. Let me go further on into the discussion and on the topic.
Let's make it short. My grandfather made his life in the military, he was born in 1911. Like many, he fought during WW2 and remained a soldier later until Indochina conflict started. He died when I was 10. I have a few memories (not many indeed), I also have a few WW2 badges, insignia, legion d'Honneur, documents and photos taken in England. Much of this collection belongs to my mum, a few stuff to my aunts. He, as you've just said, has always refused to talk about the war. Simply because what he did and had to do was not the nicest things a human being can go through (as a reminder, French SAS soliders were split and posted all around France military bases because the French Government feared a coup d'état).

I remember perfectly my mother buying the necessary equipment to record his memories. Though he was reluctant, he had decided that in a certain way it would be nice to let us, his grandchildren, a testimony, a trace of what he had lived and had to go through. Unfortunately,this never happened. He died a couple of weeks later. I just started getting interested in his actions during WW2, his regiment, his life only 12 years after he died. The only things I have to try to understand and know are his insignia, badges and his brothers in arms' interviews. His medals, badges etc...could have been, as it is the case here, sold to a collector, a friend, whoever. I could be in the same position as this woman regarding her father's medals.
But, very honestly, I would have never dared contacting the person to tell her to give all that back to me. Plus, knowing it was a transaction, I would have the honesty to ask the eprson if she would accept to sell it back to me the same price (or higher) as it was bought from her parents.

[Sonofacqms]

It is amazing how many people only gain interest in a relative after they are dead, sometimes it takes ages for them to realise a persons past efforts. The search for medals and badges seems to gain momentum after they talk to someone who has watched a TV collectables show and seen a group of medals valued by an "expert", generally overvalued, but it does make for good TV!

If I was really troubled by the emotional traumas of owning a deceased's items that were coveted by the family, I would suggest they write to three different dealers getting independent quotes for the items needed. Add the three sum totals up and divide by three, giving an overall average idea of cost. If the person still wants to buy the medals/badges when given the price, then fair enough, it's still your decision, but money making is probably out of the question.

Only T.A. and gallantry medals were named as far as I am aware for WWII, so replacing campaign medals should not be a problem.