The Grenadier Guards Officer Field Cap Badge

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Okay, so were they officers badges in general or were they Grenadier Guards officers badges?

He didn't say Frank.
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

I have seen that but i don't believe its for the Quarter Master, again i don't believe there is any evidence to prove this. I reckon its just been re gilt or plated, and whoever didn't want to remove the cypher, so the cypher got done too. IMO.
Andy

Although they were not always correct (the scale of what they were doing was monumental) Kipling and King were meticulous with their research. They must have got their information from somewhere reputable (although not necessarily always correct) else I don’t think they would have published the caption.

[Frank Kelley]

So it might well be the case that he has absolutely no idea whatsoever either then?

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

He didn't say Frank.
Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Although they were not always correct (the scale of what they were doing was monumental) Kipling and King were meticulous with their research. They must have got their information from somewhere reputable (although not necessarily always correct) else I don’t think they would have published the caption.

I would have thought there would have been some sealed pattern info, especially at this time. Ive been through the sealed patterns numerous time now, and haven't seen anything on it. Yet anyway. Kipling and King as members here have said, have made their mistakes, as do we all. The thing is here, members specialise making more accurate research. Who was the SBP chap ? a Major ? The National Army Museum had lots of wrong info on guards stuff. Took me ages for them to change stuff, then i had to go to the Regiment to prove it. Parkin, that's the chap. SBP and Buttons was his thing, not Guards stuff. They ( NAM ) said " we couldn't change anything as he was an authority " ? Research proved them wrong, and now when items are donated, they will be checking with Regiments/Corps. And here would you believe ? I'll believe it when it happens.
Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

So it might well be the case that he has absolutely no idea whatsoever either then?

Thats probably right Frank. His taken it off eBay now though ?
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

I would have thought there would have been some sealed pattern info, especially at this time. Ive been through the sealed patterns numerous time now, and haven't seen anything on it. Yet anyway. Kipling and King as members here have said, have made their mistakes, as do we all. The thing is here, members specialise making more accurate research. Who was the SBP chap ? a Major ? The National Army Museum had lots of wrong info on guards stuff. Took me ages for them to change stuff, then i had to go to the Regiment to prove it. Parkin, that's the chap. SBP and Buttons was his thing, not Guards stuff. They ( NAM ) said " we couldn't change anything as he was an authority " ? Research proved them wrong, and now when items are donated, they will be checking with Regiments/Corps. And here would you believe ? I'll believe it when it happens.
Andy

I take your point Andy, it is well made.

You are right that Parkyn should not be seen as sacrosanct, but I do respect him, he had to do an awful lot of of legwork pre-internet and pre a lot of regimental museums. Much of what he discovered was in archives and among various collectors. It's easy for us to criticise now that we can talk to each other across the world on a phone or computer.

[Toby Purcell]

There seems to be some good information here researched by a military historian (Charles Griffin) they are images of actual badges and it's interesting to see how the flame pattern definitely changed over the years:

"While officers had embroidered cap badges on their forage caps other ranks had a solid metal grenade badge. Privates had a plain smooth brass grenade, but Quartermasters, Warrant Officers and Sergeants had royal cyphers either in brass or silver".

1. Commissioned Quartermaster's forage cap badge. Gilt with silver crown and Victorian reversed cypher.
2. Sergeant's gilt badge with Victorian reverse cypher. No crown.
3. Sergeant's gilt badge with Edward VII crown and cypher. 1902-1910.
4. Warrant Officer's gilt badge with Edward VII crown and cypher in silver. 1902-1910.
5. Warrant Officer's gilt badge with George V crown and cypher. 1910-1936.

There is a close similarity between the badge that started this thread and image Number 1 below, a commissioned QMs badge.

[grenadierguardsman]

Yes but Toby, is a white metal cypher or Gilt ? Two badges mentioned to the Quartermaster, but both are different. What is it, that's my point. Both contradicting each other, hence i don't believe it to be a Quartermaster badge.
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Yes but Toby, is a white metal cypher or Gilt ? Two badges mentioned to the Quartermaster, but both are different. What is it, that's my point. Both contradicting each other, hence i don't believe it to be a Quartermaster badge.
Andy

Badges did change from time to time Andy, largely when patterns of headdress changed. In the modern army badges haven't changed for a long time, but we shouldn't judge 20th, or 19th Century artefacts always with a 21st Century jaundiced eye, but be open minded. That said, I agree that it requires further research. This was a separate source to Kipling and King and the dating has been done carefully. However, I do not know the provenance of the information and I agree that further evidence is needed. Nonetheless, I am not quite so much of a doubting Thomas as you, and I think that the information must have come from somewhere and not necessarily a doubtful militaria dealer.

P.S. A really important note to make here is that Quartermasters did not originally have a regular commission as they do now (albeit LE category), they held only Honorary Rank and were made to dress differently to all other officers to make it clear that they were not perceived as gentlemen. It seems entirely likely to me that at that time of Honorary rank (the title was always along the lines: "Quartermaster AND Honorary Lieutenant"), a special badge was worn that differentiated the QM's cap from the other officers. I believe it is not for no reason that it is similar to the RSMs badge, from whom most Quartermasters sprang.

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Badges did change from time to time Andy, largely when patterns of headdress changed. In the modern army badges haven't changed for a long time, but we shouldn't judge 20th, or 19th Century artefacts always with a 21st Century jaundiced eye, but be open minded. That said, I agree that it requires further research. This was a separate source to Kipling and King and the dating has been done carefully. However, I do not know the provenance of the information and I agree that further evidence is needed. Nonetheless, I am not quite so much of a doubting Thomas as you, and I think that the information must have come from somewhere and not necessarily a doubtful militaria dealer.

I reckon Kipling & King, Galyor and others from that era didn't have the internet to help. I know it's easy for me to judge, and obviously easier for me now to research with the internet. Most of what i have learned ( and i'm still learning ) has been from this great Forum and its members. I always think its good to debate, as this thread has proven. In a friendly way to, i hope.
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

I reckon Kipling & King, Galyor and others from that era didn't have the internet to help. I know it's easy for me to judge, and obviously easier for me now to research with the internet. Most of what i have learned ( and i'm still learning ) has been from this great Forum and its members. I always think its good to debate, as this thread has proven. In a friendly way to, i hope.
Andy

Yes they did not have the internet and that has transformed things entirely. Friendly? Of course! And I agree that more research is needed. Personally though I am convinced that badges for the Commissioned Quartermaster did exist, but remain open minded as to what they looked like. They would not have existed for very long because eventually the honorary category of commission was abolished.

"QM and Riding Master commissions were "non-combatant", that is, they were not expected to command soldiers in action except in extremis, and they were not eligible for "normal" promotion within the regiment. Even as late as 1914 they were not full members of the Mess in some regiments, being allowed dining privileges once a week. The correct title for a QM was Quartermaster and Honorary Lieutenant on first appointment, and almost always promoted to that level from RSM or RQMS. Many a Sergeant-Major ended up as a QM and Hon Lt. Promotion on "time" was available and Major was unusual, but not impossible, on a different pay scale to combatants".

Honorary Commissions continued to exist throughout WW1 and had historically been associated with what we would now call logistics. Many former SNCOs and WOs that were unable to secure a Quartermasters commission in their parent regiment obtained commissions in the ASC, AOC or their forebears, the commissary and ordnance services. Here is an excellent and extraordinary example of a career for a man who began his service with the Scots Fusilier Guards, note that even as a Lieutenant Colonel he only ever held honorary rank: https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/1664493

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Yes they did not have the internet and that has transformed things entirely. Friendly? Of course! And I agree that more research is needed. Personally though I am convinced that badges for the Commissioned Quartermaster did exist, but remain open minded as to what they looked like. They would not have existed for very long because eventually the honorary category of commission was abolished.

"QM and Riding Master commissions were "non-combatant", that is, they were not expected to command soldiers in action except in extremis, and they were not eligible for "normal" promotion within the regiment. Even as late as 1914 they were not full members of the Mess in some regiments, being allowed dining privileges once a week. The correct title for a QM was Quartermaster and Honorary Lieutenant on first appointment, and almost always promoted to that level from RSM or RQMS. Many a Sergeant-Major ended up as a QM and Hon Lt. Promotion on "time" was available and Major was unusual, but not impossible, on a different pay scale to combatants".

Honorary Commissions continued to exist throughout WW1 and had historically been associated with what we would now call logistics. Many former SNCOs and WOs that were unable to secure a Quartermasters commission in their parent regiment obtained commissions in the ASC, AOC or their forebears, the commissary and ordnance services. Here is an excellent and extraordinary example of a career for a man who began his service with the Scots Fusilier Guards, note that even as a Lieutenant Colonel he only ever held honorary rank: https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/1664493

Wow what a bloke, he had a good life. I wished i of stayed in, i did try for a transfers but they didn't like that. So i terminated my service to the Colours. Nearly 12 years, not bad i suppose.
Andy

[Bill]

Toby and Andy
From the 1914 to 1918 Army Lists, only five men were Quartermasters of the Grenadier Guards battalions which may account for the rarity of this badge:
1914 Hon. Lt. J.Teece (1st Batt) Hon. Lt. W.E. Acraman (3rd Batt) Hon. Lt. J.H. Skidimore (2nd Batt)
1915 Hon. Lt. J.Teece (1st Batt) Hon. Lt. W.E. Acraman (3rd Batt) Hon. Lt. J.H. Skidimore (2nd Batt)
Hon. Capt. J. Rolinson (4th Reserve Batt)
1916 Hon. Lt. J.Teece (1st Batt) Hon. Lt. W.E. Acraman (2nd Batt) Hon. Lt. J.H. Wall (3rd Batt)
? (4th Batt) Hon. Major J. Rolinson (5th Reserve Batt)
1917 Hon. Capt. J.Teece (1st Batt) Hon. Capt. W.E. Acraman (2nd Batt) Hon. Lt. J.H. Wall (3rd Batt)
? (4th Batt) Hon. Major J. Rolinson (5th Reserve Batt)
1918 Hon. Capt. J.Teece (1st Batt) Hon. Capt. W.E. Acraman (2nd Batt) Hon. Capt. J.H. Wall (3rd Batt)
? (4th Batt) Hon. Major J. Rolinson (5th Reserve Batt)
Regards
Bill

[grenadierguardsman]

Thanks button.
Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

Is this dealer a member on this Forum ? Ive message him a few times, but haven't had a reply ? With regards to him removing the said badge from sale on eBay.
Andy