Warrant officer precedence

[grumpy]

I am behind the curve vis a vis the official precedence of WO 1 appointments because the existence of Sgt Major of the army, Command Sgt Majors and Corps Sgt Majors post-dates published QR lists. My latest is 1975. A long time ago.

In 1975 the top bracketed appointments for precedence [not seniority] were Conductor, Royal Artillery Sergeant Major, Academy Sgt Major, Garrison Sgt Major London District, with the Master Gunner recently demoted to one class lower.

Please can anyone provide a link to the current pecking order, or transcribe it for me?

[grumpy]

slightly edited

[grey_green_acorn]

Grumpy,
This extract from Army Dress Regulations 2017 may help. Column (a) would indicate precedence/seniority. It does not include the recently appointed Senior Enlisted Advisor to the Chiefs of Staff Committee (SEAC). This post commenced in November 2018 and the first incumbent is WO1 Glenn Haughton OBE who was previously the Army Sergeant Major. SEAC must now rank above Army Sergeant Major on the list.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...highlight=SEAC

Tim

[Staffsyeoman]

Originally Posted by grey_green_acorn

Grumpy,
This extract from Army Dress Regulations 2017 may help. Column (a) would indicate precedence/seniority. It does not include the recently appointed Senior Enlisted Advisor to the Chiefs of Staff Committee (SEAC). This post commenced in November 2018 and the first incumbent is WO1 Glenn Haughton OBE who was previously the Army Sergeant Major. SEAC must now rank above Army Sergeant Major on the list.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...highlight=SEAC

Tim

Oh dear, the Academy Sergeant Major slides further down the order of precedence... but brave it was the O/Cdt who challenged his assertion that HE was the senior WO1 of the Army...

[grumpy]

Thank you very much. It certainly looks like a precedence-based list, not very different from the 1975 except for the new appointments. The reference to "upper right forearms" looks like nonsense: upper right arm more like!

The "top four" appointments in 1975 were described as listed as equals by custom and for administrative convenience or similar wording ..... thus sidestepping the claims of Conductors. Previously that were told that the list was alphabetical!

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by Staffsyeoman

Oh dear, the Academy Sergeant Major slides further down the order of precedence... but brave it was the O/Cdt who challenged his assertion that HE was the senior WO1 of the Army...

.

The top appointments precedence list [there were usually four groupings, these groupings were certainly officially precedence] held three or four appointments for long periods, with the occasional elevation to, and dismissal from, the list. For many years the authority stressed that these three or four were listed alphabetically. I suspect there was a degree of malice here towards the alphabetically advantaged conductor!

My research has established that there were at least two other warrant officer promotions before the conductors in 1879 ........ warranted hospital mates army, and schoolmasters. The only valid claim that the conductors can make is length of continuity, as the medics and schoolies, although substantially earlier, were not continuous.

Very easy to confuse seniority with precedence of course. In practice nobody disputes the authority of an RAF Station Warrant Officer or a RN Master at Arms [probably renamed] or any of the big hitters when doing their appointed job.

It is all about who sits where at the trough!

[Ex Supt Clk RAOC]

I don't think that the ACsM has slipped down the list, he was always in 3rd place, now 4th. From memory (I was an RAOC Staff Clerk for 23 years so this was my bread and butter) the senior appointments for Warrant Officer's Class One whilst I served (1972 - 1995) were:

1. Conductor of Ordnance, Royal Army Ordnance Corps
2. Master Gunner 1st Class, Royal Regiment of Artillery
3. Academy Serjeant Major, RMAS
4. Garrison Serjeant Major, London District
5. Master Gunner 2nd Class, Royal Regiment of Artillery

Obviously now the Army Serjeant Major heads up the List, The Conductor became Conductor RLC when the RLC formed. The Master Gunner 1st Class obviously became The Royal Artillery Serjeant Major (RASM) with the 2nd Class becoming Master Gunner RA.

Grumpy...… The Conductor of Ordnance was always the senior appointment and can trace itself back long before school master etc. The first record of Conductor is at the siege of Boulogne in 1544...…


It is also believe that the Army Sergeant Major and the SEAC is one and the same. The Army Serjeant Major being his appointment but he also has the job of being the senior advisor to the Chief's of Staffs Committee, in the same way that the CDS (Chief of Defence Staff) reigns over the other three service chiefs CNS, CGS and CAS. I have no firm proof of this but it makes perfect sense to me, having worked at the highest level of the MoD. I am obviously prepared to be proved incorrect on this point.


Steve

[grey_green_acorn]

Ex Supt Clk RAOC,

Things have changed a little since our service! Mine was 1969 to 2001.

As I put in my earlier post SEAC is senior to Army Sergeant Major and since November 2018 the posts are held by two different people!

SEAC = WO1 Glenn Haughton

Army Sergent Major = WO1 Gavin Paton

Tim

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by Ex Supt Clk RAOC

I don't think that the ACsM has slipped down the list, he was always in 3rd place, now 4th. From memory (I was an RAOC Staff Clerk for 23 years so this was my bread and butter) the senior appointments for Warrant Officer's Class One whilst I served (1972 - 1995) were:

1. Conductor of Ordnance, Royal Army Ordnance Corps
2. Master Gunner 1st Class, Royal Regiment of Artillery
3. Academy Serjeant Major, RMAS
4. Garrison Serjeant Major, London District
5. Master Gunner 2nd Class, Royal Regiment of Artillery

Obviously now the Army Serjeant Major heads up the List, The Conductor became Conductor RLC when the RLC formed. The Master Gunner 1st Class obviously became The Royal Artillery Serjeant Major (RASM) with the 2nd Class becoming Master Gunner RA.

Grumpy...… The Conductor of Ordnance was always the senior appointment and can trace itself back long before school master etc. The first record of Conductor is at the siege of Boulogne in 1544...…


It is also believe that the Army Sergeant Major and the SEAC is one and the same. The Army Serjeant Major being his appointment but he also has the job of being the senior advisor to the Chief's of Staffs Committee, in the same way that the CDS (Chief of Defence Staff) reigns over the other three service chiefs CNS, CGS and CAS. I have no firm proof of this but it makes perfect sense to me, having worked at the highest level of the MoD. I am obviously prepared to be proved incorrect on this point.


Steve

Thank you. The first warrant to a Conductor in the British Army, as opposed to the HEICompany, or civilians hitherto, was 1879. That is, I believe, beyond dispute. This warrant represented a promotion to a senior class called "warrant officers" which existed patchily from the time of the Peninsular Wars. Men conducted before then but were civilians, not long serving professionals.

My other point is that your 1,2,3,4,5 list gives the wrong impression: 1,2,3,4 were bracketed into a single group of equal precedence, seniority determined by date of appointment. Conductor happened to be early in the alphabet. QRs and KRs specifically stated that the list was arranged alphabetically.
Regardless of the above, the conductor and all that group have now been comprehensively stuffed as far as precedence is concerned. Conductors have had excellent PR founded on half-truths and bluff. No harm in that.

[Ex Supt Clk RAOC]

Grey Green Acorn, thanks for that, as you say times move on. it is a long time since we served and I was unaware that there were now two appointments. One lives and learns.

Grumpy - we will have to agree to disagree, however, I remain firm in my resolve that Cdr was the senior appointment. The first warrant issued to a Conductor on 11 Jan 1879 (it took them some time to produce the warrant after the appointment it seems) quite clearly states that appointment of Cdr shall be inferior to that of all Commissioned Officers and shall be superior to that of all non commissioned officers. Conductors shall have full power to exercise command over any subordinates of the Department of the Army or none commissioned officers or soldiers of the Army who may be placed under their orders....

As an aside an RSM in the RAOC or now RLC could not and would not ever be appointed to the appt of Cdr.

If an SSM was or is appointed to Cdr, in order that he does not disrupt the position of the RSM in the mess (the Presiding Member) QRs state that they would be immediately made Honorary mess members...…

In addition, I can think of no other WO1 appointment whilst on parade who take post as an officer, not as a warrant officer. The only difference is that they do not salute....


No doubt the debate will go on..... however, you may find an interesting read in an article written by an RLC Cdr on line..... www.rlc_conductor.info/conductor_article.htm (note I am not good at links so hope you can find this.

In addition to this if the appointments were listed alphabetically surely Academy Sergeant Major (AcSM) would be before Conductor (Cdr) ? or am I missing something ? I have never to my knowledge seen anything in QRs about these appointments being listed alphabetically, if you have I would most certainly be interested in this so if you could point me to the relevant chapter, paragraph etc I would be most obliged.

Sorry the above link does not seem to work, there is an underscore between rlc and conductor and another between conductor and article.

Regards
Steve

[Mike_2817]

https://www.rlc-conductor.info/home.htm I'm sure you can navigate to articles!

Interesting point is that the 2 new Army Warrant Officers are in fact commissioned officers (not differed) I spoke to the new Army Sargent Major = WO1 Gavin Paton (ex Rifles) during a Graduation Parade at the Army Foundation Collage Harrogate and he confirmed this.

The augment vis seniority of AcSM v Conductors is to my mind pointless as each Senior Warrant Officer has his or her own area of responsibility and would never dream of interfering in the others. In the RLC there is a Corps RSM (who holds a deferred commission for 2 years) and several appointed Conductors who are each a champion of his or her trade group.

There was in fact one RAOC WO1 MTI who was appointed RSM, then SSM when appointed as Chief Instructor to the School of Ordnance, who while acting as an SSM was selected for appointment to Conductor RAOC! A loophole that was soon closed....

A RAOC/RLC Staff Sergeant Major (SSM) who until 1967 were termed Sub-Conductors also hold the honour of being able to take post as an officer!

[grumpy]

Steve, my perspective is as an historian. I have a complete, absolutely complete, run of QRs and KRs [the actual printed books] from 1811 to 1955 and the relevant snatches from on-line since. Also most Pay Warrants and relevant ACIs, AOs, GOs and the like.

Nobody disputes that the Conductor has some unique attributes and privileges, my point is solely about precedence which is not, as you know, the same as seniority.

QVR 1883 was the first to tackle the precedence order, because a slack handful of SNCOs had been warranted in 1881. Paragraph 120 describes “Precedence of Warrant Officers” There were four Groups as follows:
1. Conductor of Supplies, Conductor of Stores, and Master Gunner 1st Class
2. Master Gunner 2nd Class
3. Garrison Sergeant-Major
4. All other warrant officers, including the Schoolmaster, totalling 15.
Those Grouped were to rank with one another according to dates of promotion or appointment.

QVR 1892 made no change, but was subsequently amended to the effect that Group 1 comprised : 1st Class Staff Sergeant Army Service Corps, Conductor Ordnance Store Corps, and Master Gunner 1st Class.

QVR 1896 importantly ruled that the three appointments in Group 1 were arranged alphabetically regarding precedence.

the edition of 1901 amended precedence Group 1 to comprise: Conductor Army Ordnance Corps, Master Gunner 1st Class, Staff Sergeant-Major 1st Class Army Service Corps, and Staff Sergeant-Major 1st Class Army Pay Corps. It continued to state that the list is alphabetical.

I could go on.......... the Group 1 appointments change here and there, and there is usually a note "rank with one another in the groups according to the date of their promotion or appointment". This note is repeated with each edition but was dropped in 1975 in favour of reference to "custom and administrative purposes".

There is no doubt that Conductors have a unique role within their own corps, or that they have the longest continuous warranted existence, but from the moment that other warrants were issued in 1881, they have had to share precedence with others. In effect, any Conductor appointed later than a Master Gunner 1st Class ranked junior to him in the top precedence list. This could have happened at any time after 1881.

I hope these quotations and clarifications help.

I am familiar with the online Conductor material and have corresponded with the web master.

[Ex Supt Clk RAOC]

An interesting thread, one and all... Some interesting info provided by Mike with regard to Senior Enlisted Advisor to the Chief's of Staff and the Army Sergeant Major being Commissioned...

Grumpy lots of information to absorb there, very interesting and thank you.
I totally understand your comments about precedence and seniority. Many a Guards RSM at Sandhurst (whilst I served there as Supt Clk) tried to suggest that as an RSM they were senior to me (An SSM) but always backed off when I asked them their seniority date. There were 16 WO1s at the RMAS whilst I was serving there and the only one senior to me by both appointment and seniority was Mike Nesbitt Gren Gds, the AcSM (RIP Mike) a fine man and friend.

I look forward to reading any further posts on this most interesting topic.

Steve

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by Mike_2817

https://www.rlc-conductor.info/home.htm

Interesting point is that the 2 new Army Warrant Officers are in fact commissioned officers (not differed) I spoke to the new Army Sargent Major = WO1 Gavin Paton (ex Rifles) during a Graduation Parade at the Army Foundation Collage Harrogate and he confirmed this.

The augment vis seniority of AcSM v Conductors is to my mind pointless as each Senior Warrant Officer has his or her own area of responsibility and would never dream of interfering in the others. In the RLC there is a Corps RSM (who holds a deferred commission for 2 years) and several appointed Conductors who are each a champion of his or her trade group.

I noticed this and tbh overlooked it.
WO1 Rafferty was the first Command Sergeant Major of the Rifles. But I read that prior to his appointment hed been promoted to Captain. So he must have been on a deferred promotion as you've said.

[grey_green_acorn]

It would seem that the SEAC appointment is tri-service (as is the post of Chief of the Defence Staff). It is for 3 years so the next incumbent could be from the Royal Navy or Royal Air Force.
However, I think (like CDS) it will be filled by a selection process to find the best man or woman for the job and not rotational.

Tim