QC badges of the Infantry.

[Parabellum]

Below is a list of some of the QC era (Other ranks) cap badges of the Infantry.
I would like to find out which of these badges were manufactured, issued and recieved by the regiments in metal, ie brass, nickel etc.
There is an assumption in some of the books that because one should exist - it does.
Any privately purchased badges not included.

Royal Fusiliers QC.
Devonshire QC.
Royal Scots Fusiliers QC.
East Lancs QC.
East Surrey QC (Full size).
Border QC. YES
Black Watch QC.
Notts & Derby QC.
Wiltshire (PP cypher). YES
DLI beret QC. YES
Highland Light Infantry QC.
Parachute regt QC. YES

All input appreciated

[badjez]

Tall order.

Let me start with the easy one. None were worn in brass as its use in badges ceased around the late 1900's. Since then British Army badges have been made of gilding metal 'British Army Dress Regulations 1904 defined gilding metal as “8 parts copper to 1 of zinc” (11% zinc).


The Suffolk Regt almost certainly never adopted a QC badge- there re plenty of previous threads on this.

To get a complete list it might be necessary to visit the Royal Armouries, Leeds and spend a day going through the Ordnance List of Change. That will tell you the date and description of a badge authorised by Ordnance. But, most of the instructions state that existing stock must be used up before the new badge was issued. In many cases this meant they did not get issued as either anodised badges superseded the old badges or the regiments themselves lost their own identity by becoming parts of 'Large Regiments'. In the latter case new badges were issued.

Stephen.

[KLR]

Brass was made obsolete in 1897.
I don't know much about the badges listed but I can tell you that the bi-metal (GM & WM) King's Regt badge was made obsolete in 1963 and the AA one introduced. though I think the dates vary slightly.

I haven't got the exact day / month nor the WO reference with me now. But yes, the information required can be looked up but it will take time.

[Parabellum]

I know about the brass, I've just always called it that, gilding metal isn't a term I use.

[jeep]

What about the economy badges of WW1. Were they not 'brass' as opposed to GM?

[Luke H]

Sorry this is slightly off topic but I know the GM/brass discussion can confuse people especially if new to the hobby and terms used.

Brass is defined a metal alloy of zinc and copper.

Therefore Gilding Metal (with zinc:copper ratio mentioned by Stephen) is indeed a type of brass. Rather it’s just the name assigned by manufacturer/WO to that specific ratio. No doubt chosen because of its qualities when it comes to making and finishing badges to their desired standard.

So all GM is brass but not all brass is GM. Just like hot tubs and jacuzzi’s. All jacuzzi’a ARE hot tubs but NOT all hot tubs are jacuzzis.

Additionally for consideration GM may have been the ‘approved’ standard set out above but then there’s what happened in practice in the factory. I suspect they did have some small (or larger) variations... after all can you imagine the WO metallurgically testing the metal content of delivered badges? I can’t.

[Alan O]

One you can rule out straight away is the Royal Leicestershire full size.

I have researched this badge and my findings are on the forum. However the decision to reduce the size of the badge was not to do with having a small 'beret' version.

The decision to reduce the size coincided with the new title and as such no full sized Royal version existed. They have been faked but these badges are fantasy.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...php?albumid=60

In my album I show the post WW2 versions which include some worn by the TA post 1958.

[KLR]

The First World War changed everything. The production of badges and all manner of military materiel was increased to hitherto unheard of amounts. The Board of Trade Gazette reveals that there was a great increase in manufacturing companies awarded War Office contracts for ‘Badges, Metal’ during the war years, particularly from late 1915 onwards. A number of measures were therefore instituted in order to speed up production. The most important of these was the order of 1916 for the production of cap badges made wholly of gilding metal (henceforth referred to as GM). These are popularly known as ‘brass economy’ badges though this modern term has no authority in the sources. Brass had given way to GM in 1897[i] and the word ‘economy’ does not appear anywhere in the contemporary sources.

[i] RACD Pattern 4480/1897 (TNA WO 359/6, 336) which defines GM as 86.7% copper and 13.3% zinc by weight. This is a much higher copper content than brass.






(a bit like "slider" - a modern collectors term, the WO described them as 'vertical shanks')

[leigh kitchen]

That's interesting re. the "WWI economies", I'd always taken "brass" to mean brass as the badges are never referred to as "gilding metal economies".

[Alan O]

http://www.gnmilitaria.co.uk/viewphoto.php?x=0

I remain of the opinion that this is fantasy.

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by KLR

The First World War changed everything. The production of badges and all manner of military materiel was increased to hitherto unheard of amounts. The Board of Trade Gazette reveals that there was a great increase in manufacturing companies awarded War Office contracts for ‘Badges, Metal’ during the war years, particularly from late 1915 onwards. A number of measures were therefore instituted in order to speed up production. The most important of these was the order of 1916 for the production of cap badges made wholly of gilding metal (henceforth referred to as GM). These are popularly known as ‘brass economy’ badges though this modern term has no authority in the sources. Brass had given way to GM in 1897[i] and the word ‘economy’ does not appear anywhere in the contemporary sources.

[i] RACD Pattern 4480/1897 (TNA WO 359/6, 336) which defines GM as 86.7% copper and 13.3% zinc by weight. This is a much higher copper content than brass.






(a bit like "slider" - a modern collectors term, the WO described them as 'vertical shanks')

Well put KLR.
Andy

[KLR]

Alan, I'm not sure which badge you are referring to, the link just goes to the overall site.




Leigh, in all the WO correspondence, tenders, lists, etc etc refer to these badges as "all GM"
I think it was John Gaylor who nvented the name "brass economy" - but then, when he was writing the info at the NA was not publicly available.

[leigh kitchen]

Originally Posted by KLR

Alan, I'm not sure which badge you are referring to, the link just goes to the overall site.




Leigh, in all the WO correspondence, tenders, lists, etc etc refer to these badges as "all GM"
I think it was John Gaylor who nvented the name "brass economy" - but then, when he was writing the info at the NA was not publicly available.

I'm going to have to stop refering to "brass economies" now.
The link - scroll down the page and there is a Royal Leicestershire Regiment bi-metal, large size.

[Alan O]

Indeed the regtl records strongly suggest that the first ORs badge for the Royal Leicestershire regt was the reduced size badge.

The large size first appears in the 1970s.

[KLR]

I think there was reference here (years ago) that a brass Leics cap badge was produced iin India in the 2nd War (there was certainly a cast brass King's badge made there)