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  #1  
Old 06-04-21, 03:21 PM
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Padre Padre is offline
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Default Very Early Royal Air Force Ranks

Hi

I am looking for some help with very early Royal Air Force ranks, which so far I have not been able to find official explanation or sanction for.

The first is featured in the photo below of two RAF Airmen on a motorcycle circa 1918/19. Both are wearing the first pattern khaki uniform with caps, button fastening belt, brass buttons, shoulder eagles and clearly, the RAF Airmans brass cap badge. But the puzzling thing is that both are wearing a single Lance Corporal chevron, a rank not part of the RAF until a couple of years ago when the rank was introduced for the RAF Regiment. Wearing the RAF cap badge and shoulder eagles they are clearly not Army seconded to RFC or RAF, or even Army jokingly wearing RAF caps for the photo. Any explanation?

The second refers to a Warrant Officer rank, as displayed by Sam Kydd in the film 'Reach For The Sky'. The RAF had two Warrant Officer ranks from its formation - 1st Class, wearing the Royal Coat of Arms, and 2nd Class, wearing the large crown, both badges in brass or cloth form, the latter discontinued in late 1939. This scene from the film relates to about 1930 and shows 'Mr Blake (Sam Kydd as Warrant Officer Blake) wearing the large crown within a wreath, usually worn by an Army CQMS. Yes, I know its a film, but other aspects are very accurate, and it seems strange to show a badge that was 'never' part of RAF uniform. Also, I have seen other references to the badge as being RAF, but I have never seen an official order authorising it, nor period photos etc. Can anyone give an explanation, or details? Many thanks
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  #2  
Old 07-04-21, 02:51 PM
grumpy grumpy is offline
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Sorry cannot help directly but crown in wreath had three iterations:

first: for the very most senior tranche of army warrant officers as then was: Conductor c. 1899, then staggered over a few years for his equals, the First Class Staff Sergeant Majors and the Master Gunner First class [all by 1915],

then with the major revision of October 1918, when those at RQMS level adopted the badge to distinguish them from other WO Class IIs,

and finally from 1938/9 for WO Class IIs during the period when the short-lived rank of WO III existed [crown only] until it quietly withered away during/ after the 2nd World War.

NB during 1915 to 1918 the badge structure had crown and wreath senior to the Royal Arms, very odd-looking to modern eyes. The 1918 sequence has seen little change, in essence, to this day, although several levels have been added at the top.

But RAF: not as far as I know.
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  #3  
Old 07-04-21, 03:20 PM
grumpy grumpy is offline
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Sam Kidd is not wearing eagles ..... is he actually meant to be RAF?
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  #4  
Old 07-04-21, 03:38 PM
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Thanks Grumpy

(In October 1918, wouldn't that be CQMS (IE Warrant Officer 2nd Class Quartermaster) as opposed to RQMS (Warrant Officer 1st Class Quartermaster)?

Sam K is in the uniform of a Warrant Officer. The Warrant Officer (2nd Class) wore Airman pattern serge uniform and cap badge to 1939, but the Warrant Officer (1st Class) wore officer pattern barathea uniform (without shoulder eagles) and the Warrant officer cap badge.
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  #5  
Old 07-04-21, 06:04 PM
grumpy grumpy is offline
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[QUOTE=Padre;545234]Thanks Grumpy

(In October 1918, wouldn't that be CQMS (IE Warrant Officer 2nd Class Quartermaster) as opposed to RQMS (Warrant Officer 1st Class Quartermaster)?

Keeping matters simple, for infantry:
Definitely RQMS crown and wreath.
The history is thus: until the 1913/14 change from 8 companies to 4 companies, the senior other rank in the rifle company was a colour sergeant, 3 chevrons and crown. At unit HQ those with rank above him were the QMS 4 chevrons and star, and possibly the Orderly Room Clerk, 4 chevrons only. Their "rank" was QMS. Above them were warrant officers, SM with crown, bandmaster with special band badge, and schoolmaster [not on active service].

With 4 companies, the 4 senior colour sergeants were given an extra 6d, kept the same badge for a few months, and became CSM. The 4 juniors had no change and became CQMS.

In Jan 1915 a whole raft of soldiers became the new WO Class II, including the QMS level, and the colour sergeants appointed CSMs. The badges were promulgated in May 1915, but the [R]QMS was lumped in with the CSMs to wear the crown only. In October 1918 the RQMS added the wreath.

Thus, between losing the four chevrons and star 1915, and gaining the wreath 1918, there was no distinction for the RQMS, except he probably was a bit older and better fed.

In 1915 Class II comprised:
Master Gunner 3rd Class
Army Schoolmaster if not a warrant officer
Garrison Quartermaster Sergeant
Quartermaster Corporal-Major
Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant (RQMS)
Squadron Corporal-Major
Squadron Sergeant-Major (SSM)
Battery Sergeant-Major
Troop Sergeant-Major
Company Sergeant-Major (CSM)
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  #6  
Old 08-04-21, 10:17 AM
RAY WALKLING RAY WALKLING is offline
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Default REACH FOR THE SKY

After a quick look at film on YouTube. First and second appearances of Sam Kydd, suggest to me that he is incorrected badged as a WO2 (should have been wearing shoulder eagles and gilt crown on sleeve) without surrounding wreath. Third appearance (War had broken out), he is badged, as far as I can make out as a WO1 (in theory, in view of the current events of the time this would have been par for the course)
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Old 05-01-22, 05:09 PM
Gaznav Gaznav is offline
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@padre

Sorry for the delay. The chaps on the motorcycle and sidecar outfit look like they are at RAF Halton - the wooden huts and what looks like the Chiltern Hills in the background give it away.

The Lance-Corporal tape was used over the years for Apprentices to denote various things - Junior Entries and Leading Apprentices immediately spring to mind. I wonder if that is what you are looking at? Obviously RAF Halton was conducting engineering training by 1918/1919 before No 1 School of Technical Training got the massive makeover under the direction of the visionary Lord Trenchard
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  #8  
Old 08-01-22, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAY WALKLING View Post
After a quick look at film on YouTube. First and second appearances of Sam Kydd, suggest to me that he is incorrected badged as a WO2 (should have been wearing shoulder eagles and gilt crown on sleeve) without surrounding wreath. Third appearance (War had broken out), he is badged, as far as I can make out as a WO1 (in theory, in view of the current events of the time this would have been par for the course)
That is true. But although the film was made in 1956 they do get a wealth of other details correct. For example, there is a scene in the Mess pre-Bader losing his legs, and both he and 'Harry Day' have the correct pre-1931 Patten Mess Dress, with the correct blue waistcoat, shoulder ranks and no aircrew badges, that uniform having been obsolete for over a quarter of a century by that time. Its seems odd they would have badged another with rank that was never even used in the RAF.
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Old 08-01-22, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaznav View Post
@padre

Sorry for the delay. The chaps on the motorcycle and sidecar outfit look like they are at RAF Halton - the wooden huts and what looks like the Chiltern Hills in the background give it away.

The Lance-Corporal tape was used over the years for Apprentices to denote various things - Junior Entries and Leading Apprentices immediately spring to mind. I wonder if that is what you are looking at? Obviously RAF Halton was conducting engineering training by 1918/1919 before No 1 School of Technical Training got the massive makeover under the direction of the visionary Lord Trenchard
Thanks for your comments Gaznav.

It is indeed Halton and Apprentices is a possible option. There are a few question marks over this however. To begin with, the original photo was dated 1918, the Apprentice scheme not starting until 1920 and No. 1 School of Technical Training when it was raised, was at RAF Cranwell, relocating to RAF Halton in 1922. Also, although it officially was abolished in 1924, the khaki uniform both are wearing was largely replaced by 1920 for all ranks by the blue uniform.

The familiar Apprentice badge of a four-bladed prop in a ring was authorised in April 1919 for wear on both sleeves, initially being worn from March 1920 at Cranwell so if Apprentices I'd have thought both would be wearing the badge.

A head scratcher!
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  #10  
Old 08-01-22, 11:26 PM
blueboy684 blueboy684 is offline
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Default RAF Lance Corporals????

Is it possible that these airmen were lance-corporals when they were in the Royal Flying Corps and upon formation of the Royal Air Force in April 1918 the 'powers that be' didn't know what to do with the old RFC rank, and didn't want to effectively 'bust' them by making them remove their stripe?

Just a thought!
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  #11  
Old 17-01-22, 02:54 PM
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Hi Blueboy

The RFC didn't have Lance Corporals (the lowest badges rank being Air Mechanic with a two bladed prop) but it does make me wonder if they maybe had transferred from the Army as Lance Corporals and had yet to be reclassified. The khaki uniforms suggest a very early period, probably within the first year or so of the RAF, and while ranks and uniforms were still being established.

Thanks for the answer.
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  #12  
Old 28-01-22, 08:18 PM
Gaznav Gaznav is offline
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@padre

Whilst the RAF Apprentices didn’t start until the 1920s, there was technical training on site at RAF Halton from 10 Sep 1917 when the School of Technical Training was headed up by Lt Col Ian Bonham Carter (there is a road at Halton named after him). At that point there were some 6,000 air mechanics and 2,000 boy mechanics. Later, there was a separate Boys’ Training Depot formed on 9 Oct 1919, which predated the 1923 RAF Apprentice Scheme. On 4 Feb 1918 Bonham Carter reported 3,478 boys under training as part of a return for the formation of the RAF.

Cheers, Gaz
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