An Old Bailey badge?

[Jamesb853]

Attached is a scan of a badge I acquired via PICA quite a few years ago. I am pretty sure that it is not City of London Police but would like to know who wore it. It has been suggested in the past that it might have been worn by a uniformed attendant the Central Criminal Court (The Old Bailey), but with no real certainty. The Guildhall Library were unable to throw any light on it either when I enquired some years ago.

Does anyone know what this badge is please? It is heavy gilt brass with 2 fixing lugs on the back.

James

[johnG]

I betcha PJ knows

Nice badge, James. Thanks for showing it. Can you give us an indication of size, please?

John, as you are all too aware, there are innumerable amounts of badges, insignia, etc. etc. swirling around the labyrinthine maelstrom that is the City of London, and its unquantifiable departments, companies, clubs, and so on.

I dare say this very nice badge can be pinned down precisely, and I will do my best to help, but potentially, it could come from any of the countless bodies that use the armorial bearings of the City as part of their regalia.

James, may I have your permission to take a copy of your image, please? I might be able to obtain an answer, but it will probably mean having to send it off to various departments within or connected to the City of London.

Sorry to let you down on this one, John .

Regards,

Peter.

PS - Given that it is quite a decorative, gilt badge, I am wondering if there is any connection with the LMO (Lord Mayor's Office), but not sure that their badges would bear a crown.

[johnG]

You see, PJ did know the answer.

Originally Posted by johnG

You see, PJ did know the answer.

Far from it, John .

Peter.

[Edit - Thinking about it, this badge is very similar to the collars worn by the 6th Bn Royal Fusiliers]

[Bantam]

Hi Jamesb853,
I believe that it was used as a seal on the bags that contained commital death warrants from the courts to the prisons.
Hwyl
Bantam

[Jamesb853]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your reply and help. The badge measures 38 x 42 mm and appears to be cast rather than struck.

No problem with you taking a copy - please feel free to do so and I look forward to seeing what you manage to find out.

Regards
James

[Jamesb853]

Hi Hwyl,
Sorry but you are getting me confused! Are you referring to the City of London badge or the QV Prison horse brass being used as a seal? In any event I thought the committal warrants went with the prisoners' escorts.

Regards
James

Originally Posted by Jamesb853

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your reply and help. The badge measures 38 x 42 mm and appears to be cast rather than struck.

No problem with you taking a copy - please feel free to do so and I look forward to seeing what you manage to find out.

Regards
James

Thanks, James.

Can I just ask; are the lugs E/W or N/S?

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Bantam,

Interesting suggestion - I'd not heard of this before. I presume being a seal, it would have to be treated with a great deal of care and respect?

Regards,

Peter.

[Jamesb853]

Hi Peter, they are E-W.

James

Originally Posted by Jamesb853

Hi Peter, they are E-W.

James

Thanks, James.

Peter.

[Bantam]

Hi James,PeterJ
The City of London Badge was used as a seal on a case/bag in which the death committal warrant was transfered between The Home Office and The Prison.
On The Museum of London site they have one from Newgate along with a description of badge and its use.
Hwyl is a welsh term for goodbye/regards which I use.
Regards
Bantam

Originally Posted by Jamesb853

Hi Hwyl,
Sorry but you are getting me confused! Are you referring to the City of London badge or the QV Prison horse brass being used as a seal? In any event I thought the committal warrants went with the prisoners' escorts.

Regards
James

[REMEVMBEA1]

http://citypolice.tripod.com/CityofLondonUniforms.htm

Originally Posted by Bantam

Hi James,PeterJ
The City of London Badge was used as a seal on a case/bag in which the death committal warrant was transfered between The Home Office and The Prison.
On The Museum of London site they have one from Newgate along with a description of badge and its use.
Hwyl is a welsh term for goodbye/regards which I use.
Regards
Bantam

Bantam,

Absolutely fascinating stuff.

I have again looked on the MoL website, but cannot seem to find James' badge. There is a copper alloy badge shown which was apparently attached to the dispatch bag that carried death warrants from the Home Office to Newgate (1800-1850), but it is entirely different to the example James has submitted. It consists of the shield of the City (the Cross of St. George and the Sword of St. Paul) above a scroll bearing the word 'Newgate'. No crown in evidence, either.

I presume you are suggesting that James' example is perhaps a different/later version of the badge shown on the MoL site?

With thanks,

Peter

[Bantam]

Hi Peter,
Despite trying to identify prison badges with the City of London Arms on I'm afraid I've had little success.It is because the Newgate badge was the only one that had its usage stated by the MoL and James's badge also court related I was suggesting that may have been used in the same way ?
Given that it is still feasible that there are people still alive who could have worn the badge (if worn) I am surprised no one can shed no light on its purpose.
I'm afraid early prison badges are somewhat of an enigma.
I look forward to your thoughts/comments.
Hwyl
Bantam