British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Infantry (& Guards) Badges

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 21-09-23, 07:08 AM
Phill Lockett's Avatar
Phill Lockett Phill Lockett is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Auckland NZ
Posts: 752
Default Officer rank slide, Stars and pips WWII-1970

Hi team

I picked up a set of Captain rank slides and before I document , I would like more input on these.

They are 10cm x 6cm flater pips although they are several mm tall.

Would these be WWII or Post WWII and how could one tell.

cheers

Phill
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Captain WWII rank slides-14.jpg (92.4 KB, 52 views)
File Type: jpg Captain WWII rank slides-14rev.jpg (105.9 KB, 11 views)

Last edited by Phill Lockett; 22-09-23 at 09:58 PM. Reason: Developing more interaction on the subject and easier to find
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 21-09-23, 12:44 PM
cbuehler's Avatar
cbuehler cbuehler is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 3,365
Default

They look WW2, but impossible to be sure. Could have been Malayan emergency as well.

CB
__________________
"We seldom learn the true want of what we have till it is discovered that we can have no more." Sam. Johnson
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 21-09-23, 01:34 PM
Toby Purcell's Avatar
Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Completed colour service and retired
Posts: 3,152
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phill Lockett View Post
Hi team

I picked up a set of Captain rank slides and before I document , I would like more input on these.

They are 10cm x 6cm flater pips although they are several mm tall.

Would these be WWII or Post WWII and how could one tell.

cheers

Phill
They are very typical for three decades, 1950s to 1970s, when you could see such slides on olive drab (OD) cellular weave tropical uniforms in particular, but also on other green garments such as p1960 cotton gabardine combat jackets and, more latterly, jerseys heavy wool. They were replaced by machine embroidered types from the 1980s onward.

NB. The individual rank stars (aka pips) could additionally be found with red (infantry) backing in particular, but also various other colours laid down in matériel regulations.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 21-09-23, 02:00 PM
Phill Lockett's Avatar
Phill Lockett Phill Lockett is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Auckland NZ
Posts: 752
Default

Thanks CB/Toby for your input.

Just several more points.

Both slides , pips and stitching do not glow and also any comments about the pips. Are these typical WWII or post WWIII.

They are padded some what, however compared to my other WWII slides they are about half the"padded" size.

The cotton drill is very thin compared to my WWII slides and Malayan Borneo major rank.

Also with the stitchining around the slides it looks crude and not professionally done, kinda like theatre made put together?

Would you have any comparison ranks from the 50's to 70's to show?

I have been adding Kiwi WWII/postWWII rank slides as well as British Rank slides to my collection as I find them very intriguing and a cool piece of history as some have theatre made pips.

thanks guys , please more comments as Im learning as I go!

cheers

Phill
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screenshot 2023-09-19 195408.jpg (46.2 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg NZ Army Major 1953-1960-10.jpg (66.9 KB, 16 views)
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 22-09-23, 10:38 AM
Toby Purcell's Avatar
Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Completed colour service and retired
Posts: 3,152
Default

Phil the stars/pips were manufactured by a wide variety of suppliers to a quite basic specification at that time, when the Army was still relatively large and there were a concomitantly significant number of officers outfitters. I think you’re in danger of reading too much into the slight variations, both in makeup, and quality of tailoring/seamstressing. I can’t think of any way to look at a pip and differentiate between one made in 1950 and one made in 1970, apart from the obvious effects of age. It was the machine embroidering direct onto slides that was the big change and even then the old type still endured for working dress and you could see a mixture among the officers broadly correlating to their age and length of service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phill Lockett View Post
Thanks CB/Toby for your input.

Just several more points.

Both slides , pips and stitching do not glow and also any comments about the pips. Are these typical WWII or post WWIII.

They are padded some what, however compared to my other WWII slides they are about half the"padded" size.

The cotton drill is very thin compared to my WWII slides and Malayan Borneo major rank.

Also with the stitchining around the slides it looks crude and not professionally done, kinda like theatre made put together?

Would you have any comparison ranks from the 50's to 70's to show?

I have been adding Kiwi WWII/postWWII rank slides as well as British Rank slides to my collection as I find them very intriguing and a cool piece of history as some have theatre made pips.

thanks guys , please more comments as Im learning as I go!

cheers

Phill

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 23-09-23 at 06:48 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 22-09-23, 07:19 PM
Phill Lockett's Avatar
Phill Lockett Phill Lockett is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Auckland NZ
Posts: 752
Default

Thanks Toby

Always good to get background on a subject that I dont know about.

I have only recently added WWII Rank slides to my collection, both Kiwi and British but now will add 1950's-70 era.

I have seen Tims collection and I beleive most are modern , havent come across many WWII era rank slides even searching the forum.

As for the pips and stars have merely looked at only inpassing, now I will pay more attn and see if I can build up a small collection from various era's.

Hoping there could be more threads out there on both topics.

Phill
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 22-09-23, 07:43 PM
High Wood's Avatar
High Wood High Wood is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,528
Default

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ctureid=202680


There were a great many variations of these rank stars locally made in India, either by the regimental tailor or in the bazaars. Being hand made, no two 'pips' are identical.


https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ctureid=202681

Last edited by High Wood; 22-09-23 at 07:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 22-09-23, 08:22 PM
Phill Lockett's Avatar
Phill Lockett Phill Lockett is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Auckland NZ
Posts: 752
Default

Thanks Hugh

I want to explore British made and differant theatre made pips and your album is a good start.



Phill
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 22-09-23, 08:30 PM
grey_green_acorn's Avatar
grey_green_acorn grey_green_acorn is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Kent, UK
Posts: 5,793
Default

Phill,
Indeed there are many variations in both cloth and metal crowns and rank stars worn by British Army officers. Dress Regulations produced by individual regiments and corps specify the size and design for metal badges but not usually for cloth badges.

See my Album https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...hp?albumid=498

Tim
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_1781.jpg (74.4 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1782.jpg (75.3 KB, 20 views)
__________________
"Manui dat cognitio vires - Knowledge gives strength to the arm"
"Better to know it but not need it than to need it and not know it!"
"Have more than thou showest, speak less than thou knowest."
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 22-09-23, 08:36 PM
Phill Lockett's Avatar
Phill Lockett Phill Lockett is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Auckland NZ
Posts: 752
Default

Thanks Tim

I did just now look at your album.

Tim can you tell me about WWII era pips , how they were made and the differance between the differant padded and non padded pips.

Were they hand and or machine guided in Britain or India.

The ones I have are on slides , they are either machine or hand guided on felt and wool.

cheers

Phill
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 22-09-23, 09:47 PM
grey_green_acorn's Avatar
grey_green_acorn grey_green_acorn is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Kent, UK
Posts: 5,793
Default Officers' Rank Badges

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phill Lockett View Post
Thanks Tim

I did just now look at your album.

Tim can you tell me about WWII era pips , how they were made and the differance between the differant padded and non padded pips.

Were they hand and or machine guided in Britain or India.

The ones I have are on slides , they are either machine or hand guided on felt and wool.

cheers

Phill
Phill,
I think the short answer is all of the above!

Officers’ rank badges were not ‘issued’ but in most instances were purchased by the officer from military tailors and outfitters in the UK and overseas. Therefore, a great variety in manufacture, thread, cloth and finish occurred. In some Commands ‘Officers’ Shops’ were established and badges could be obtained on repayment, for example the plastic economy crowns and pips.
Although cloth badges are found on slip-ons worn ‘in the field’ (and removable for laundering) you also see olive green and khaki drill shirts and jackets with holes in the shoulder straps to fit metal badges worn in HQs and barracks.
As Toby posted, it was not until the early 1970s that machine embroidered slip-on slides were produced for the ‘new’ temperate disruptive pattern combat kit and a measure of standardisation occurred. From the 1980s (as you will have seen in my Albums) many types of regimental and corps rank slides appeared, particularly when rank slides were worn on the chest following issue of CS95 dress and its successors.
Regimental variations in metal rank badges continue to be worn on No1 and No2 Dress reflecting history and tradition, albeit in a shrinking Army!

Tim
__________________
"Manui dat cognitio vires - Knowledge gives strength to the arm"
"Better to know it but not need it than to need it and not know it!"
"Have more than thou showest, speak less than thou knowest."

Last edited by grey_green_acorn; 23-09-23 at 07:49 AM. Reason: Add title
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 22-09-23, 10:02 PM
Phill Lockett's Avatar
Phill Lockett Phill Lockett is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Auckland NZ
Posts: 752
Default

Thank you for your input Tim as always.

I have changed the title of the thread to reflect more comments, images and discussion.

I do hope members add to this thread from WWII to 1970 to show variations and differancies and point out this is a WWII...... or this is a 1950's etc.... slide stars and pips.

cheers

Phill
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 26-09-23, 09:52 AM
High Wood's Avatar
High Wood High Wood is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,528
Default

A few more.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg PIPPS 2.jpg (120.5 KB, 24 views)
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 26-09-23, 10:53 AM
54Bty's Avatar
54Bty 54Bty is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: London, England
Posts: 6,278
Default

There are also woven ones to contend with.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Rnk Star wov-col-Red-Brab-01f.jpg (62.0 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg Rnk Star wov-col-Red-Brab-01r.jpg (53.5 KB, 3 views)
__________________
I am still looking for British Army cloth Formation, Regimental, Battalion, Company and other Unit sleeve badges, from 1980 onwards.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 26-09-23, 03:12 PM
cbuehler's Avatar
cbuehler cbuehler is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 3,365
Default

There simply no definitive way to determine whether a star or crown was made in WW2 or 1950. One must be aware that WW2 made items were worn for decades later, being used up from old stocks. I have also seen what appeared to be WW1 made stars on WW2 era slip on straps. I find that Indian made examples are usually fairly easy to identify, which certainly helps to date to WW2, but again, an officer serving into the 50s could still be using these if he happened to have some leftover. Whatever available was used. Unless one has provenance, it can be an impossible effort.

CB

PS, I show some Indian Army examples of WW2 and just post war.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0325.JPG (112.4 KB, 24 views)
__________________
"We seldom learn the true want of what we have till it is discovered that we can have no more." Sam. Johnson

Last edited by cbuehler; 26-09-23 at 03:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:25 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.