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  #1  
Old 15-02-09, 06:56 PM
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'Ticker' Riley 'Ticker' Riley is offline
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Default Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry Great War cap badge

In my attempts to get hold of a genuine First World War D.C.L.I. ordinary ranks’ cap badge I recently bought one with the infamous J.R.GAUNT.LONDON mark associated with 1970s restrikes, which I subsequently returned to the seller after the overwhelming weight of opinion here was that it was indeed a restrike. Since then I have now managed to get hold of this example by Lambourne’s of Birmingham:


The badge has been through the wars a little (if you’ll excuse the military pun!), and whilst the dealer who sold me the badge didn’t say it dated from the Great War, it was one of the oldest badges he had. Interestingly I have seen previous postings elsewhere on the Forum about Lambourne cap badges, and in particular there is one by Sonofacqms in which he said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonofacqms View Post
Several years ago I got interested in badges made by Lambourne, the company I believe only made badges during WW1 and the quality of their strikes varied between reasonable and awful, they were not plentiful and I only managed to acquire: Lancs Fusiliers, Norfolk Regt, A.S.C., Northamptonshire Regt, KRR, and the Cambridgeshire Regt. All these badges were die-struck to a degree of quality.
As I’m still so new to this game I’m very much on the learning curve with things, so any advice or comments regarding this badge would be very much appreciated. At the moment I think this one is an authentic Lambourne badge, and it does look very much like one that was formerly posted up by Jibba Jabba; thought the slider on his was shorter and squared off. Anyway here’s a close up of the slder on the one I’ve bought:


If Sonofacqms is right about Lambourne only making badges during the First War, then I think there’s a good chance I have one from the period I’m looking for. Though having said that, I have also been led to believe that ordinary ranks’ badges never carried a maker’s mark - all comments welcome!

Regards

Martin

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 23-01-14 at 10:31 AM.
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  #2  
Old 15-02-09, 08:13 PM
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Sonofacqms Sonofacqms is online now
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Default Dcli

Martin, your DCLI by Lambourne looks to me to be a good one, there is a slight change in the shape of the bugle from other DCLI badges. There is no sustitute for holding a badge in your hand, screen images, although good cannot convey the feel of a badge.
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  #3  
Old 16-02-09, 02:04 AM
Chrisr Chrisr is offline
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Martin,
I also have a Lambourne DCLI badge. The quality looks quite good o me.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DCLI F.jpg (50.2 KB, 43 views)
File Type: jpg DCLI R.jpg (49.9 KB, 45 views)
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  #4  
Old 16-02-09, 09:29 AM
NorthStafford NorthStafford is offline
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Ticker, just a small point OR means other ranks not ordinary.
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  #5  
Old 16-02-09, 09:40 AM
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I`m not sure about these. As I said on an earlier thread my badge has a rectangular slider with a well defined crimp line. I also believe the metal of the badge to be a lot thicker than the example shown.

I`m afraid I simply do not know enough about this manfacturer in regards to when they introduced rectangular sliders and standard shaped sliders. Someone on the forum did say that the quality does differ a lot with this manufacturer, perhaps that person could enlighten the forum?
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Last edited by Jibba Jabba; 16-02-09 at 09:47 AM.
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  #6  
Old 16-02-09, 11:10 AM
Chrisr Chrisr is offline
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I'm quite happy with mine. Good crisp stamping and solid. Feels right.

Cheers
Chris
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  #7  
Old 16-02-09, 02:49 PM
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'Ticker' Riley 'Ticker' Riley is offline
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Many thanks for all the comments gentlemen.

Your Lambourne D.C.L.I. badge certainly looks to be the same as the one I have Chris, though mine seems to have suffered a bit and is now more curved in shape, with the middle of the horn slightly buckled and the slider rather bent towards its end. Mine is also quite grubby on the back compared with yours, and your slider appears to be fixed higher up on the crown – all very interesting.

I have to say that the metal on mine isn’t that thick, so maybe the one you have Jibba Jabba is a better quality strike? Perhaps the difference in the slider shape is also of some significance, but I too don’t know enough about the subject to say. To be honest I think at this stage I’m inclined to agree with Chris and Sonofacqms in as much as the one I bought does look (and feel) to be authentic.

If anyone else has other examples of Lambourne badges it would be good to see them, and any other thoughts on things so far would also be most welcome.

Regards

Martin

P.S. Thank you NorthStafford for correcting my mistake about wrongly referring to “other ranks” as “ordinary ranks” - hope the members of the Forum will forgive my ignorance in this respect!?

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 17-02-09 at 10:12 AM.
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  #8  
Old 17-02-09, 03:52 AM
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Hi Martin,

I too am still learning about badges and I have been collecting for nearly 50 years, albeit from a vast distance from the sources of my principal area of interest. Much of what I have learned regarding original badges (what I mean by original is the badge being struck and used when the unit was in existence - others use the term genuine) has come from the members of this and another forum and their advice has been invaluable. What I have deduced from the various comments is that there are no hard and fast rules in judging a badge to be original, only indicators and then they are not applicable to every badge. Secondly, unless there are clear indications of it not being original, we cannot be sure. There are, however, stronger indicators of badge being a re-strike, although some of these are getting harder to distinguish. Sometimes I think we grasp at straws in judging a badge as being not original, when in fact we don't really know and in many cases will never know. In the end, if you are happy with the badge that is all that counts.

From what I have read on this and another forum some indicators that a badge could be genuine include patina, the crispness of detail on the badge when viewed form the rear, the gauge of the metal the badge has been struck from, sweat holes for earlier badges (although there are claims that some manufacturers did away with sweat holes during the Great War - much earlier than the generally accepted time of the late 1920's early 1930's), crimp lines on sliders (although this does not apply to all genuine badges), tapered slider (although, as far I know, this does not apply to all original badges), the braising material used to secure sliders and lugs and the badge has been shaped to follow the curvature of the cap (although this is rare and would have been done by the wearer). Some place a high value on the "feel" of the badge; to me feel is probably the least objective indicator of all. These are not hard and fast for every badge and, as I have said, are simply indicators.

There are also useful indicators that a badge is a re-strike. These include thin metal gauge for the early re-strikes that were easy to bend (although some members say that even this is not hard and fast proof for some badges), the lack of crispness in the strike when viewed from the rear (although we hear that the quality the Lambourne and other mass produced badges during wartime varied), an old style badge being shiny and having no patina (clearing demonstrating a recent production), alternatively a badge that has been deliberately aged and has a particularly black rear that cannot be removed with cleaning agents (they also have traces of black on the front of the badge), cast rather than die- struck (although some genuine badges were cast), flaws in the design (although this may be due to maker's variations), lugs on designs of badges that were approved after sliders were introduced, the braising agent to attach lugs and sliders and "JRGAUNT London" stamped in small print on the slider. Some say badges with brasso on the rear are suspect yet I have old badges that I polished years ago, before I knew better, and the brasso has not blackened.

I think if we get down to the only discriminator being its "feel" then the judgement is purely speculative. I tried to get the feel for two badges based on weight, one felt ever so slightly heavier than the other: I weighed them on an electronic set of weighing scales and they were exactly the same weight!

As an example of using the indicators described above I have posted another two DCLI badges, one I am sure is a re-strike and the other I believe is original.

The one on the left is a lugged badge which from the front seems to be original but I have marked it as a re-strike for the following reasons: it is not clearly struck behind the CORNWALL, the lugs look new, being bright coppery on the inside of the loops and the badge itself is too bright for it to be a lugged badge (pre 1904 -05), not enough patina on it. The last two indicators are the prime reasons for rejecting it

The right hand badge I believe to be original for the following reasons: it was acquired in 1963 from a gentleman who collected badges from troops during WW2, it is crisply struck, it appears to be the correct gauge metal as I cannot bend it easily, it has a tapered slider and although the photo doesn't show it, there is a slight crimp line on the top of the slider.
By themselves the indicators are not proof but having each of them on the one badge gives me enough confidence to judge it as original. Others may judge it differently, but I am happy with it.

My suggestion is consider all the comments provided and the indicators on the badge itself and make your own judgement. To date I haven't seen anything that clearly disputes its authenticity and the fact that it is slightly curved indicates a level of authenticity to me. Jibba Jabba may be correct but the evidence against it not being original is not compelling at the moment.

BTW The Lambourne and the tapered slider versions of the DCLI badges I have posted each weigh 12g; the lugged badge weighs 8g which is accounted for by being lugged rather than having a heavier slider.

I hope this is some help as you get more involved in the hobby.

Cheers
Chris
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2 x DCLI F.jpg (29.3 KB, 50 views)
File Type: jpg 2 X DCLI R.jpg (29.8 KB, 53 views)

Last edited by Chrisr; 17-02-09 at 05:39 AM.
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  #9  
Old 17-02-09, 04:31 AM
Chrisr Chrisr is offline
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Jibba Jabba,

Would you mind posting a photo or scan of the rear of your DCLI Lambourne badge to give us a better idea of the points you have made? It would be useful to see the differences.

Cheers
Chris
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  #10  
Old 17-02-09, 11:18 AM
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'Ticker' Riley 'Ticker' Riley is offline
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Hello Chris

Many thanks indeed for your thorough and comprehensive posting about the kind of indicators I should be looking for in an original/genuine badge. Glad to hear I’m not the only one still learning about things – and there does seem so much to learn!

You’ve certainly covered a lot of ground here, and it has given me plenty to think on. It was interesting to read about your weighing experiment as well, and whilst “feel” is important that this shouldn’t necessarily be the only consideration. Looking at the two D.C.L.I. badges you’ve put up I can see what you mean about the one with the lugs not having very crisp detail in where it says “Cornwall”, as seen from the back, compared with the one with the slider. Imparting your knowledge like this will be a great help to me I’m sure, and out of interest I thought I would just weigh my Lambourne badge to see what it was – 12g, so that would seem consistent. Nothing that has been said so far has made me doubt this badge is authentic, unlike the Gaunt one.

The variety of styles, even in such a common badge as the D.C.L.I. one is also intriguing. The Lambourne badge has much large tassels than those on other examples I’ve seen (more like upside down thistles!) and the lettering size of “Cornwall” is much smaller, which together gives it quite a distinctive look. One final point – I notice that in both of your latest examples there is metal between the tops of the tassels, which is something I haven’t seen before, though this is probably just a coincidence. Anyway, thank you again for your posting. I’m sure it will not only be of use to me, but will also help others like me who are just starting out. I do feel myself being drawn into badge collecting more and more!

Best regards

Martin

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 17-02-09 at 02:29 PM.
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  #11  
Old 17-02-09, 05:03 PM
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good post that chris,i like your thinking. trouble with me is i have now reached an age were i have forgotten more than i have ever learnt! happy collecting mate. regards. phil.
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  #12  
Old 20-02-09, 02:51 AM
Chrisr Chrisr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisr View Post
Jibba Jabba,

Would you mind posting a photo or scan of the rear of your DCLI Lambourne badge to give us a better idea of the points you have made? It would be useful to see the differences.

Cheers
Chris
Bumping this up in case Jibba Jabba hasn't seen it.

Cheers
Chris
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  #13  
Old 20-02-09, 02:57 AM
Chrisr Chrisr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by signalman View Post
good post that chris,i like your thinking. trouble with me is i have now reached an age were i have forgotten more than i have ever learnt! happy collecting mate. regards. phil.
Thanks Phil. I think I am in the same boat as you.
Cheers
Chris
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