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  #1  
Old 05-12-11, 04:47 PM
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The militia badges have been widely faked but they removed one too many honours! The originals retained the central Arros del moly..thing while the fakes removed this as well as the honours on the cross' arms.

Here is what I believe may be correct:


Attribution
- Regular badges - batttlehonours and 'arroyo dos' motto.

- Militia badges - no battlehonours and 'Honi Soit' motto.

- VB - no battlehonours and Honi soit motto with VB title scroll below.

- Fake - no honours no motto.

Examples to back up the theory
For some evidence here is a named 1st VB HPC with the 'Honi Soit' motto.

http://www.britisharmybadges.com/vie...h=52120&phqu=2

A 2nd VB collar with the 'Honi Soit'

http://www.gnmilitaria.co.uk/viewpho...h=17871&phqu=2

There are named 1st and 2nd VB cap badges with the South Africa Honours (so 1905-08). These too have the 'Honi Soit' centre. These were presumably worn on the newly introduced Forage Caps and replaced either Glengarry/FSC caps and smaller (no SA honour) badges or possibly the slouch (smasher) hats that were all the vogue in the VB following the Boer War.

Here are 2 militia HPCs with the 'Arros Dos'. Both are officers so I would be grateful if anyone has a picture of an ORs one.

Kings Crown http://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive...6&lot_id=81367
Queen Victoria's Crown https://www.spink.com/lot-descriptio...id=13003000359

Note that the HPC has had the 'CHINA' regimentally erased as the Militia were not entitled to it.

There also exist collars were the regular pattern globe and brass dragon but without the word 'China'. This illogicallity mirrors the TF Glosters losing the word 'Egypt' but retaining the sphinx cap badge!

Last edited by Alan O; 18-01-17 at 04:12 PM.
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  #2  
Old 27-08-15, 01:09 PM
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http://www.sole.org.uk/ssoldiers.htm

A particualrly good set of 2nd VB border regt groups in 1900 and upon their return in 1901.

Note the collars on the plain (khaki?) tunics in the 1901 lower photo are not the wreath and dragon ones shown in Churchill but the same shape as the ones listed as militia. They echo the post 1905 2nd VB collar linked above in GN Militaria but without the SA scroll. No cap badges appear to be worn.

The top photo dated 1900 in red tunic may well be the 1st pattern dragon ones which the regulars replaced c.1895? Unfortunately it is unclear what colour are but Churchill attributed the brass (no China) ones to the militia bn and w/m (no china) to the VB.

Clearly these were replaced by the 2nd Vb Bn in 1901 (some 5 years after the regulars) I would suggest that they are Honi Soit ones but whether these were the same for the militia or they used Regular ones is unknown.

Honi Soit Collars:

http://www.deadspartan.co.uk/viewpho...h=55758&phqu=2
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  #3  
Old 28-08-15, 12:53 AM
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Default 2VB Border approvedpattern images 1888 & 1896

If it helps - attached from the RACD list of changes the approved patterns for 2 VB Border

Helmet Plate & Glengarry 1888
FSC Badge 1896
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2 VB Border Rgt.jpg (52.7 KB, 46 views)
File Type: jpg 2VB Border 3.jpg (39.2 KB, 34 views)
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  #4  
Old 28-08-15, 07:30 AM
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Alan O Alan O is offline
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John

Fantastic.

I do wonder whether the 1st VB wore the same badges with a 1st numeral or whether it had no additional scrolls because it was the 1st? There was precedence for this in other VBs.

Another suggestion is that the scrolless badges were worn by the 3rd Vb which was raised in 1900.

More research to do.

Just when I thought I was uncertain enough I found this post1905 militia officer's badge - with SA honours in the centre!

http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/au...6-a42500036860

Last edited by Alan O; 30-08-15 at 05:29 PM.
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  #5  
Old 30-08-15, 03:14 PM
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This 1st VB HPC has the lower title scroll. It is not too unreasonable that the centre had this scroll when used as a glengarry badge. The HPC is one piece so any Glangarry badge would have to be made for that hat as the HPC do not seem to have been separate (interchangeable) as the regular ones were.
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File Type: jpg ORS 1VB HP BORDER.jpg (42.3 KB, 28 views)

Last edited by Alan O; 30-08-15 at 05:30 PM.
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  #6  
Old 10-04-16, 04:54 PM
Paul Spellman Paul Spellman is offline
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I thought I would show these if they help,
I already had the 2nd VB Offrs Glengarry badge on the left but I picked up the Militia Offrs SP Glengary badge and the VB Bn's Badge on Friday,
I must admit I am a bit confused about the status of the 1900 raised 3rd Bn wether they where classed as regular militia or VB,
In 1908 they transferred to the Special Reserve???
Paul
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Last edited by Paul Spellman; 10-04-16 at 05:19 PM.
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  #7  
Old 10-04-16, 04:55 PM
Paul Spellman Paul Spellman is offline
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  #8  
Old 05-08-16, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Spellman View Post
I must admit I am a bit confused about the status of the 1900 raised 3rd Bn wether they where classed as regular militia or VB,
In 1908 they transferred to the Special Reserve???
Paul
You seem to mix to different battalions.

. Royal Cumberland Militia > 1881: 3rd Battalion, The Border Regiment > 1908: 3rd (Reserve) Battalion, The Border Regiment.

. 1900: 3rd (Cumberland) Volunteer Battalion, The Border Regiment > 1908: 5th (Cumberland) Battalion, The Border Regiment (TF).
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  #9  
Old 05-08-16, 07:53 PM
Paul Spellman Paul Spellman is offline
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Hi Henk,
The 3rd VB was raised specifically for the Boer war, the 5th (TF) were previously the 1st (Cumberland) VB the 4th (TF) were the 2nd (Cumberland & Westmoreland)VB my confusion was with the status of the of the Bn raised in 1900 wether they were militia or VB status. I believe they were a VB Bn (3rd)and post boer war were absorbed by the others.
Paul
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  #10  
Old 06-08-16, 08:10 AM
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Hello Paul,

I am not the youngest anymore, but I wasn't a witness at those times. My main source of information is Ray Westlake: Tracing the Rifle Volunteers.

It says about Cumberland:

1st Administrative Battalion of Cumberland Rifle Volunteers consolidated in 1880 as 1st Cumberland Rifle Volunteer Corps.
In 1881 it became part of The Border Regiment.
In December 187 the designation changed to 1st (Cumberland) Volunteer Battalion, The Border Regiment
In 1900 five companies were detached to form 3rd (Cumberland) Volunteer Battalion, The Border Regiment (see below)
In 1908 it was transferred to The Territorial Force as four companies of the 4th Battalion, The Border Regiment (TF).

In 1900 3rd (Cumberland) Volunteer Battalion, The border Regiment was created from five companies of 1st (Cumberland) Volunteer Battalion, The Border Regiment and three new companies.
In 1908 it was transferred to the Territorial Force as 5th Battalion, The Border Regiment (TF).

And Westmorland:
In 1880 the 1st Administrative Battalion of Westmorland Rifle Volunteers consolidated as 1st Westmorland Rifle Volunteer Corps.
In 1881 it was transferred to The Border Regiment.
In December 1887 the designation changed to 2nd (Westmorland) Volunteer Battalion, The Border Regiment.
In 1908 it was transferred to the Territorial Force as four companies of the 4th Battalion, The border Regiment (TF).

In short: The 1st VB split of the 3rd VB in 1900 and it merged in 1908 with the 2nd VB to become the 4th Bn (TF). The 3rd VB became the 5th Bn (TF).
This is a bit different from what you found.

I any case, it is clear that the battalion raiued in 1900 was a VB because
a) it was titled a VB
b) it's numbering was in the VB line, when in the "militia" line, it would have been the 5th Bn in 1900.
c) it was transferred to the TF and not to the Special Reserve in 1908.
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  #11  
Old 06-08-16, 09:21 AM
Paul Spellman Paul Spellman is offline
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Thanks Henk,
I got my info from a museum enquiry, but was left with the impression I was fobbed off, I did wander why the 1st Cumberland VB lost precedence with what I was told, but i can see that the 4th TF is the Cumberland and Westmoreland so that is not the case. I think something similar happened with the 3rd VB KLR.
Paul
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  #12  
Old 06-08-16, 09:24 AM
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Alan
If it helps your original question - I had catalogued this as an OR's Militia badge. It has the Honi Soit motto not Arroyo.

Different to officer's? I will look forward to your conclusion.
Mark
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File Type: jpg IMG_4091.jpg (51.0 KB, 9 views)
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  #13  
Old 06-08-16, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Spellman View Post
Thanks Henk,
I got my info from a museum enquiry, but was left with the impression I was fobbed off, I did wander why the 1st Cumberland VB lost precedence with what I was told, but i can see that the 4th TF is the Cumberland and Westmoreland so that is not the case. I think something similar happened with the 3rd VB KLR.
Paul
Westlake does not mention the secundary titles of the TF battalions, but elsewhere you can find that the 4th has (Westmorland and Cumberland), no doubt that is due to the merge of the 1st (Cumberland) and 2nd (Westmorland) VBs.

My sources (including Westlake) say that the 3rd VB The King's (Liverpool Regiment) was disbanded in 1908. Why? Maybe lack of volunteers. So it was not merged. But maybe some personal volunteered into nearby TF units. (But I guess we are now ging way off topic in this thread).
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