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#16
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All superb photos and interesting to see the two seated men in sam brownes in the latter group shot, together with the 'old sweat' sergeant proudly wearing his 1897 pattern bandolier amongst the others in 1903 pattern.
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#17
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EAST RIDING YEOMANRY BADGES
Does anyone know when the East Riding Of Yorkshire Yeomanry cap & collar badges changed from the "thin" running fox to the fox/scroll pattern please? The main badge reference books seem to disagree on this, the usual dates quoted being 1912 & 1920
Personally ,I think 1912 is more likely as the first badge is very scarce, not surprising if it was only in use for c. 17 years, including WW!, I think there would be more around. I believe there is a brass"economy issue" of the 2nd pattern, if this is the case then this pattern must have been introduced before the end of WW1 at the latest. Also the second pattern cap badge with a slider seems quite hard to find. Is it safe to assume that collar badges ( with lugs) were often worn as cap badges,perhaps manufactured as such, both being the same size? Any comments/info much appreciated. |
#18
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Very difficult question and one that does not have an absolute answer. The scrolless fox is the earlier one as it came in use when the Imperial Yeomanry was in being and was still being worn after the first war by the old boys probably until they retired. The scrolled badges came in just after wwi (i think though i have attached an image of an all brass badge) and was worn until after wwii. I have attached a couple of group shots showing both badges being worn as cap and collar as well as combinations of old and new! Very confusing.
Hope this helps, Dave
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Tha’ can allus tell a Yorkshireman, but tha’ can’t tell ‘im much. |
#19
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Hi Dave
What is the badge being worn on the right breast by some of the guys, Imperial Service badge? Thanks. Cheers, Alex |
#20
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Imperial Service Badge it is, well spotted.
Cheers, Dave
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Tha’ can allus tell a Yorkshireman, but tha’ can’t tell ‘im much. Last edited by Alan O; 12-09-14 at 11:46 AM. |
#21
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My thoughts are 1912 for the badge with the later pattern fox.
Dave's photo (please see attached) would support this as some of the soldiers are indeed wearing the Imperial service badge along with a mixture of both patterns of badges with definitely no WW1 medal ribbons, so even if we argue about the date the Territorial Force was actually disbanded and the date the Territorial Army was formed it would appear that the photo is pre WW1. Secondly when the ERY were reformed as part of the new Territorial Army they became an armoured car Sqn in the RTC wearing the RTC/RAC cap badge until 1939 when the running fox cap badge was readopted. Cheers, Marcus Last edited by Alan O; 12-09-14 at 11:45 AM. |
#22
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ERYY
David, I've been trying to sort this out as well. The literature suggests 1903 to 1920 for the fox, kk1495, and an officers' gilt version i.e. the IY version didn't change. However Wilkinson (W255) suugests that a brass FORRARD version was issued before the end of the war. I've been looking for both with no success!
Bill |
#23
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Hi chaps,
Many thanks for the replies + excellent pics. What I meant to say in my original post is that you would expect the 1st pattern to be scarce if it was only worn for C.9 years, up to 1912. Had it been In use until 1920 - For C.17 years, including WW1, I think there would be more around. From the photos + selection of badges, I'm still inclined to think the 2nd pattern ( with scroll) was introduced C.1912, at least for men joining from that date. Probably, as you suggest Dave, men already serving continued to wear the old pattern badges a while after that. Also, the all brass 2nd pattern badge shown certainly suggests a date earlier than 1920. |
#24
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Guys,
What I did not mention in my last post on this subject is that the ERY spent most WW1 in the middle east before moving to France in December 1917 when it became part of the Machine Gun Corps very late that year or very early in 1918 when it merged with the Lincolnshire Yeomanry to become the 102nd Bn (Mobile) of the Corps. It would therefore stand to reason that neither fox badge was worn from this time until 1938/1939 on reformation of the Regiment (for a short period no cap badge was worn at all, as on leaving the RTC no running fox badges had been made, there are a number of period photos supporting this). When the badges were issued to the reformed Regiment they were with the Forrard scroll, the same pattern was also issued to the 2 ERY when they were subsequently formed. Again I would like to be proven wrong if anyone can produce any pictorial evidence of the fox badge been worn during the interim period it would be great to see them. Maybe guys that's why the skinny fox is particularly so rare, as it was only worn for a very short period of time. All ERY insignia is rare (both metal and cloth), less the bog standard run of the mill other ranks fox with Forrard scroll. I have a fair collection (mainly WW2 and post WW2) to the ERY and only 2 decent skinny fox cap/collar badge on lugs, I have had a number of easy to bend (copy) examples pass through my hands as there are a fair few floating about and have only ever seen a couple of (what I think to be genuine) examples on slider. If anyone has a good example on a slider for sale I would be prepared to pay a decent price for it, so if any one knows where their is one a steer in the right direction would be appreciated. Cheers, Marcus Last edited by guest123a; 16-05-13 at 04:37 PM. |
#25
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Hi Marcus,
I agree with your comments. To summarise, the "skinny fox" was probably the only badge in use until c. 1912, from that date the new badges (with scroll) started being phased in.The 2 photos probably date from 1912/1914, which would account for both patterns being worn. No fox badges were worn from towards the end of WW1 until the late 1930's at which time they were re-badged with the fox/scroll pattern. that's what I think anyway! As regards the first pattern "skinny fox" badges, they are rare. I don't have any in my collection and have only seen a pair of collars (lugs) which I thought were genuine. I've never seen one with a slider, other than in photos. |
#26
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ERY call for 1914-1918 exhibits
To all.
The following will eventually help sort out uncertanties - it is a link I came across when trying to find out more about the ERY:- http://www.hu12online.net/east-ridin...nry-1915-1918/ The first paragraph reads: "THE EAST RIDING COUNCIL Museums Service is planning to commemorate the centenary of the Great War with a display and other learning activities at the Treasure House, in Beverley, in the autumn of 2014." Anyone who can help with this appeal is asked to contact Dr. Marchant on 01482 392771 or by email at david.marchant@eastriding.gov.uk Forum members may be able help and benefit. Can we start a thread that lists such exhibitions planned around the country? Bill |
#27
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Change to scroll badge
The fox with scroll certainly came in before 1912. It was changed from the skinny fox to the fox with scroll following the change in command of the Regiment from Lord Wenlock to Col Stracey-Clitherow in 1908. I assume it took some time for the change to take affect but it was definitely in use by 1910. Attached is a picture showing the fox with scroll in use at the South Dalton Camp of 1910.
Cheers, Neil. |
#28
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EAST RIDING YEO C/B - REAL OR REPRO?
I found this 1st pattern East Riding Yeo cap/collar badge at an antique fair over Easter. It looks to me but given that it was only £3 I'm a bit suspicious !
Looking at photo's of the badge in various reference books and those which were posted here in response to a query I made several months ago, there seem to be minor variants. Primarily, to what extent the legs are voided and the angle of the back legs. I have seen a few repros of this badge but they are a bit "tinny" looking with thin metal.This a more solid badge with what appears to be Genuine wear. Was it a bargin? Would appreciate any opinions/comments. |
#29
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David,
From the state of the lugs and their fixing to the badge (from the angle shown), and the rear of the badge it looks good to me. Looks nice and solid. Unfortunately I don't have one to compare it with, but that's my opinion. David Last edited by Alan O; 12-09-14 at 11:46 AM. |
#30
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Hi David,
It's very like one of mine (1st & 2nd photos). I'm not keen on my badge because of the loop type at the rear. I could be wrong but I don't think these loops were in production until later after the badge had become defunct. I have another badge (3rd & 4th photos), different die that does have nice D loops. The Fox has voided legs and a different shaped head with flatter ears. See what others think. Gar |
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