British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Infantry (& Guards) Badges

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-02-08, 11:21 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 5,906
Exclamation Lugged Ww1 Economy Badges - Thoughts Please

Hi fellas,

I'm just on the look out for you opinions on lugged '16 all brass economy issues. I've seen many over time most commonly I'd say E. Lancs and S. Lancs (PoWOV) but occasionally RWF and Devons etc.

In my opinion I've never really seen one of these badges which were produced in a slider dominated era that was totally convincing, does anyone own such examples they are sure are genuine or visa versa, would it be possible to conclude '14 infantry lugged economy issues are all wrong uns?

An example is this E. Lancs listing on ebay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EAST-LANCASHIR...ayphotohosting - the lugged one looks iffy on the back like it may have been chemically aged, as opposed to the more orthodox long ww1 slider seen on its accomplice.

Cheers for any input/opinions ,

Luke
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-02-08, 11:33 PM
Keith Blakeman's Avatar
Keith Blakeman Keith Blakeman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Staring into space, just wishing I had a desk.
Posts: 2,949
Default

Luke,

Unfortunately I don't have that many economies any longer but those I do all have sliders. Uncertainty was the main reason I offloaded the others and many of the iffy ones had lugs. The only good one I know of is Alan's Notts & Derbyshire which I think has been posted on an earlier thread. There may be others around but they're few and far between. There's a big debate about the validity of all-brass Scottish badges which of course all have lugs.

The lots being offered are a real mixed bunch as were the seller's King's sets a couple of months back. Certainly the collars look good and some are rare too but better pics of the backs and information on sweatholes behind the rose are definently required before taking the plunge.

Last edited by Alan O; 23-08-08 at 07:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-02-08, 11:52 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 5,906
Default

Cheers Keith. I think economically speaking its gotta be a lot easier to stamp sliders than make lugs. For one you've got to make two brazes in stead of one, and secondly the wire for the lug must be filed so the two sides can come together flush (if you get me). I certainly don't trust 'em to be honest!

As for the Scots another can of worms methinks (although I am convinced by an all brass black watch my uncle has). I agree that economies were to cut production time rather than white metal shortage but I don't see why all brass Scots badges couldn't exist as I've and all brass DLI, Somerset LI and Yorkshire I'm sure are 100% where originally single stamped wm.

Another interesting varient are two badges my uncle has made in brass yet plated in WM (Beds & Herts and Rifle Bgde) they're certainly old but why was post war wm badge made in brass ?

Luke

Last edited by Alan O; 23-08-08 at 07:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-02-08, 02:51 AM
Malcolm Davey's Avatar
Malcolm Davey Malcolm Davey is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: The Shire
Posts: 1,608
Default

another point, if to cut production time on bi metal badges why do we have all brass badges made into economies, Engineers, Artillery and im sure there are others,

Cheers
Malc
__________________
http://www.watlingmilitaria.com/



Imagination is more important than knowledge. For while knowledge defines all we currently know and understand, imagination points to all we might yet discover.

Last edited by Alan O; 23-08-08 at 07:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-02-08, 06:42 AM
KLR's Avatar
KLR KLR is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London
Posts: 3,055
Default

Yes, the E Lancs and the S Lancs were produced as GM (they were never in real "brass") economies in 1916. The listing has 'Forage Cap Badges with vertical shanks' (ie slider) which to my mind nullifies any with loops.
Interestingly of the very few specified with loops, there was the 1915 pattern Liverpool Pals. In 1917 this was replaced with another pattern specifically with a slider - in other words it was just the type of fitting that changed !
As for that Scots chestnut, the ONLY GM badge specified is the RS (which was bimetal anyway), NO others.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-02-08, 09:59 AM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,729
Default

Malc.

As I understand it the RA and RE economies can only be the result of a need to cut production time and skills as they are solid where the others are voided. (No w/m involved at all).

Alan

Last edited by Alan O; 23-08-08 at 07:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-02-08, 01:00 PM
Malcolm Davey's Avatar
Malcolm Davey Malcolm Davey is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: The Shire
Posts: 1,608
Default

Alan
I can understand what your saying,but if that is the case how come there is no Royal Irish regiment ,Queen's bays ,First Life Guards,Connaught Rangers to name a few with voided parts in Economy.
If the point was to save time why not all voided brass badges made an Economy.


Cheers
Malc
__________________
http://www.watlingmilitaria.com/



Imagination is more important than knowledge. For while knowledge defines all we currently know and understand, imagination points to all we might yet discover.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-02-08, 03:19 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,729
Default

All I can suggest is different makers and the sheer scale of RA and Re badges required (10000s) compared to a single regiment such as the Bays (circa 600-800) and Infantry (esp irish) with relatively small number of battalions. There are no economy RIF badges for example except for the out of proportion fakes. This was repeated in WW2 with plastic badges when the Cav/Yeo/TA Inf were not made in plastic due to the tiny numbers (relative to the other Corps) required and the Irish bns were made in low numbers.

Back to the original pictures - the second one with the low set sldier is 100% genuine in my opinion. Again there is a picture of this one with the low sldier in Wilkinsons book. I also think the first one may be articficially aged as it has a perculiar hue to its colour.

While Bosleys may sell the N&D with lugs as economy, I am not convinced and still think that it not with the plaque on it. (See other thread for my deranged ideas)

Alan

Last edited by Alan O; 12-02-08 at 09:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 26-05-08, 04:29 PM
fougasse1940's Avatar
fougasse1940 fougasse1940 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,206
Default

- Brass (67% Copper and 33% Zinc)

Gilding metal So called through being able to be easily gilded, is defined in the 1900 Dress Regulations as “eight parts of copper to one part of zinc.” (86,7% Copper, 13,3% Zinc By weight, Royal Army Clothing Department Pattern No. 4480/1897) A brass alloy therefore, but now containing a higher portion of copper than zinc to those previously made.

White-metal or German silver, sometimes referred to as nickel-silver (64,5% Copper, 16,5% Zinc, 19,0% Nickel by weight, Royal Army Clothing Department Pattern No. 4481/1897)

I'm definately no metallurgist, but it would seem to me that white metal with its nickel content would be harder than brass or gilding metal. So those softer brass badges would be easier to manufacture than white metal ones.

fougasse1940.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 26-05-08, 05:29 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 5,906
Default

Hi STM,

KLR has found the army orders which states the reason for and lists the badges which were officially made in brass under WD sanction and there are no all wm badges on this list. I'm sure when he comes online he will post a picture of the document which states the WD's reason on this thread.

Gaylor's list was compiled from badges held in his and others collections and can in no way be considered official and indeed I'm sure in those days many of them must have held near one off pieces, the fact this list was compiled in the 1960's would make these badges unlikely to be restrikes IMO. However badges on his list but not the army's are unofficial and not true economy badges with the amounts produced of those unofficial ones in the Gaylor list are likely to be minuscule... when have you ever seen a genuine all brass RDF? That badge incidentally seems to have not been officially produced in all brass due to the lower numbers required by Irish regiments, there seems to be no hard fast rule in which BM badges were selected for all brass production as RDF and RIF wasn't yet Leinster, Munster and Inniskilling were. Also several BM badges requiring a tagged on scroll were not produced in brass like the The Kings and Warwickshire.

I, like you have seen badges normally produced wholly in wm appear in brass which I'm sure are genuine. In my uncles collection he owns an all brass DLI and Yorkshire regt he and I are sure was worn from their patina/age, signs polishing and all the other stuff etc. Indeed the Black Watch badge with the die flaw under the Spinx's tablet appears in brass also and in wm any way is considered a genuine badge which begs the question when was the die re-used? In my opinion however a great many of these brass economy badges are later repros for Scottish badges the issue is further complicated as Canadian Regiment with the same badge designs eg Seaforth and Pictou Highlanders shared the same badge with the latter having a brass variant.

These wm badges which appear in brass are NOT official economy badges but it is my belief that at least some of these badges existed and were worn unofficially, the whys and the wherefores I don't know and your guess is as good as mine, BUT the vast majority of these badges IMO are in fact restrikes.

As you say a lot of the BM badges are probably more wm than brass, but to use a point Alan Owen mentioned to me if wm was the problem why did they not produce Scottish badges (army records show they didn't apart from the Royal Scots) in brass hence using up lots of white metal yet bothered to replace the KOYLI's or East Yorks' tiny wm rose with a single brass stamping and the answer is brazing. I believe brass was picked due to economics in my opinion brass is cheaper than nickel and easier on the dies considering the large numbers of badges required and the uncertainty of the length of the war as at that time money had better things to be spent on than badges.

The trouble is restrikes have confused and already complicated issue as Alan stated in another thread, I have also seen brass Rifle Brigade (later type), Cameron and Seaforth Highlanders badges plated in wm.

I believe the army's official records are what was actually going on at the time as opposed to hear say written down in Gaylor, and the facts are in black and white that no wm badges were produced in brass as an official wartime economy measure

Hope this helps,

Luke
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 26-05-08, 06:27 PM
Saddle tree maker's Avatar
Saddle tree maker Saddle tree maker is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 128
Default

Thank you Luke and Fougasse.
Looks like all 3 questions have now been answered.
I didn't have any evidence myself to support either view, there were just a few thought's floating around in my head which I couldn't answer myself.
I hope Julian does post his research, as I believe it will become the best resource on the subject, as it appears that most, if not all book's seem to be mistaken.
I have always been a fan of Gaylor's book, and still think it is the best 'read' out of all the badge book's, though maybe not 100% accurate.
Look's like I'll have to throw that all brass 9th lancers I have in the bin, then.
Thank's again, STM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 26-05-08, 07:07 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,729
Default

STM

If you go through K&K Vol 1 they list all the cavalry economy variants (but frustratingly not the infantry ones). For some reason they mention a blackened brass 17th lancers as an economy which has been mentioned in another thread. Also they list a 9th lancers economy badge which is the odd one out as all the other badges have an overlay when in bi-metal. The general rule is that if the badge had an overlay then an economy version was made. As ever there is an exception to the rule - in this case 9th lancers. Without knowing what badge in Hugh King's collection this 9thL economy was based on, it is impossible to say whether this was all brass, cast bazaar or a later commercial badge.

As an aside I have seen all brass DLI, Glosters TA and Kings Regt badges. Upon close inspection there is a strong chance that they were originally TA BB badges that had been over cleaned (6th DLI, 4th Glosters and 5th kings). Also having gone through various stalls at fairs all too often supposed economy badges are in fact over-polished lugged Offrs collars. Nearly all cap badges by 1916 (scots aside) were slidered.

'Why not all w/m idea' is a thought provoking idea and would affect the East Lancashire for certain and possibly the Royal Scots. Another thought is that badges were certainly being made from 1916 in new designs in all w/m - the last pattern Tyneside Scottish or even the Guards MG Bn was an all w/m star only made in the last 2 years of the war. The design and production of this new w/m badge post 1916 does fly in the face of a nickel shortage.

Alan

Last edited by Alan O; 26-05-08 at 07:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 26-05-08, 07:35 PM
Saddle tree maker's Avatar
Saddle tree maker Saddle tree maker is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 128
Default

Regarding the 9th Lancers, I have never been happy with the one I've got to be honest, it's got those rods across the lances, which I believe is a modern incarnation and has no place on an original (That goes for all the lancer badges - I believe any rod, if ever used, should only be to strengthen the crown when slidered and all the 5L with them are fake IMO).
Interesting you should both mention the King's, as I have never seen an all brass economy to the regiment that I would describe as original and I have seen both 1 piece and 2 piece badges in brass, both slidered and lugged N/S.
STM.

Last edited by Saddle tree maker; 26-05-08 at 09:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 26-05-08, 07:59 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,729
Default

STM,

Have to agree with you about the 5L. The brass 9L has been produced by the usual ebay crooks with and without the rods.

Further to Luke's comments, I also have a Black Watch badge with the same sphinx die flaw in a yellow brass. It has the same flaw as shown in BW badge in Wilkinson's book so is usually regarded as a 'safe' pre-war design. It is actually a WW1 Canadian badge,
Alan

Last edited by Alan O; 16-09-18 at 03:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 26-05-08, 08:27 PM
Saddle tree maker's Avatar
Saddle tree maker Saddle tree maker is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 128
Default

Moving slightly away, but in relation to the Black Watch badge you have, I touched on this earlier in reply to Fougasse's post.
Were the economy badges in Brass - the yellow victorian era brass or where they gilding metal ? Or indeed a mixture of both ?
If the latter, should they be called "1916 all gilding metal economy issues"
Or am I totally off the wall on this one and have an early night ?
STM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
42nd, all brass, black watch, economy

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:57 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.