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  #1  
Old 29-10-17, 09:21 PM
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Default London Scottish - Shoulder Title Change

Members may be interested in the following:

In regularising shoulder titles for the Territorial Army, the War Office, in December 1922, issued a pamphlet with Army Order 481, entitled ‘Titles and Designations of Units of the Territorial Army’ which specified the correct shoulder titles to be worn by TA units.

AO 481 (1).jpg

For some London Regiment battalions this meant having to give up their existing shoulder titles; a prospect which was not met with any great enthusiasm. As a result a number of units sought means by which to retain them, one of which was the London Scottish.

In France, in 1914, the regiment had been given permission by General Lowther, G.O.C. 1st Guards Brigade, to wear the ‘LONDON/SCOTTISH’ shoulder title (Westlake 1528)...

LS ST x.jpg

...which had been worn from that time onwards. However, in 1922, this design was seen to be a deviation from the correct title ‘T/14/LONDON’ (Westlake 1527) which had been laid down by the War Office in the above mentioned pamphlet.

T14 ST.JPG

The battalion asserted that as well as having conducted their Great War service under the name ‘London Scottish’ this was also the name by which they were best known. They stated that in addition to authority having been given to them to wear the title by General Lowther, in 1914, it was also considered that the name ‘London Scottish’ was instrumental in promoting esprit de corps. The adoption of the ‘T/14/LONDON’ title was not popular, especially in view of previous service under existing conditions.

With regard to other London units in similar positions, compromises with the Honours and Distinctions Committee had been reached. For example, the 21st Battalion had asked that they be permitted to retain their worsted ‘FIRST SURREY RIFLES’ shoulder title...

FSR Worsted.jpg

...a request that was dealt with as a ‘minor deviation’ under the terms of War Office Letter 9/9/London Regiment/1790 (T.F.2) of 18th April 1921*, and which was eventually granted on condition that it be worn in addition to the correct ‘T/21/LONDON’ metal title on the shoulder strap. This was also the case with the 28th, and the 16th Battalions. The Artists Rifles had been granted permission to retain their worsted ‘ARTISTS’ title...

Artists Worsted.jpg

...and the 16th granted permission to wear their ‘QW & CSR’ worsted titles, both on condition that they be worn in addition to the correct ‘T/28/LONDON’ and ‘T/16/LONDON’ metal titles on the shoulder straps.

The 14th Battalion however, was in a slightly different position. It had never had cloth/worsted shoulder titles, and was therefore not in a position to seek a similar compromise. Any agreement that might have been reached under which the wearing of its current title would be in conjunction with the correct ‘T/14/LONDON’ title, was viewed potentially as being cumbersome, given that a repetition of the word ‘London’ would occur (once in the ‘T/14/LONDON’ title, and again in the ‘LONDON/SCOTTISH’ version).

A proposal was put forward by the Divisional Commander to the effect that sanction be given to the recommendation that the authorised shoulder title should be ‘T/14/LONDON SCOTTISH’. Unfortunately for the battalion, at a meeting of the Honours and Distinctions Committee early in 1924, this proposal was viewed as departing from the prescribed regular title pattern, and the recommendation was refused. It was further considered that if any such application from the London Scottish were to be sanctioned it would mean many other battalions of the London Regiment forwarding similar applications.

Interesting to note that as an alternative, the committee was unanimously of the opinion that the 14th Battalion might be permitted to wear at the top of the sleeve, the title ‘LONDON SCOTTISH’ in worsted, in the same way as the 16th, 21st and 28th Battalions had requested.

------------------------------------------------

* War Office Letter 9/9/London Regiment/1790 (T.F.2) of 18th April 1921, was a missive sent to all Territorial Force Associations, containing the following:

I am commanded by the Army Council to state that applications have been received from Territorial Force units from time to time for permission to introduce into Service Dress uniform minor deviations from the approved pattern, such as a special pattern of button. Such deviations are usually founded on regimental tradition and sentiment, and it has been decided that in future approval may be given by the War Office for such deviations under certain conditions. Detailed instructions for carrying out this decision are being considered. I am therefore to request that Territorial Force Associations will submit to the War Office any applications received from the units under their administration. I am to state further that in addition to approval by the War Office the following conditions will apply:

1. Approval will not be given to any deviation which is detrimental to military efficiency or requirements.
2. Any deviation, for which approval is sought, must have existed in the uniform of the unit before or during the War 1914-18.
3. The R.O.A.C. will not undertake to supply or to stock any of the material or articles constituting the deviation.
4. In no case will any extra expense be admitted against public funds for the provision or maintenance of any deviations.
5. On mobilisation service dress of the approved pattern will be issued under the same conditions as to the Regular Army and no deviation will be allowed.

Last edited by Jelly Terror; 01-11-17 at 02:13 PM. Reason: Addition of Army Orders Image
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  #2  
Old 29-10-17, 09:23 PM
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Thanks button.
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Old 29-10-17, 10:31 PM
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"Thanks"!
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Old 02-11-17, 08:46 PM
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Just wondering what the metal 'T/14/LONDON SCOTTISH' shoulder title might have looked like if the proposal had been accepted:

LS Fantasy Design 1.jpg



LS Fantasy Design 2.jpg



LS Fantasy Design 3.jpg

JT

Last edited by Jelly Terror; 04-11-17 at 12:43 AM.
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  #5  
Old 02-11-17, 11:13 PM
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Very interesting. There is a thread in the Great War Forum covering London Regiment dress for which this information will make a great addition.
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  #6  
Old 03-11-17, 07:28 AM
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That is absolutely fascinating. Thank you so much for taking the trouble to type it all out for us.

I hope you do not mind me asking about the blue on khaki embroidered title. The IWM version I saw did not come with a description of date, though I had always presumed it was from the 1917 'survey'. It is often described as WW1 in online auctions. For example, here

May I ask what your opinion is? If it were WW1 period, this would seem to contradict your statement that the London Scottish never wore embroidered titles at that period. I have, admittedly, never seen them in photos from the time.

Many thanks,

Chris
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_8538.jpg (51.5 KB, 20 views)

Last edited by Drew; 03-11-17 at 07:32 AM. Reason: Broken link
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Old 03-11-17, 12:31 PM
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The London Scottish title worn.

© IWM (HU 113787)
Private Charles E. V. Bewick 514363. 14th. Battalion,London Regiment (London Scottish).




© IWM (HU 115054)
Private Harold C. Gillard. 14th Battalion, London Regiment (London Scottish).




© IWM (HU 116922)
Private H. M. Philip.14th. Battalion, London Scottish Regiment.

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Last edited by Voltigeur; 03-11-17 at 12:37 PM.
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  #8  
Old 03-11-17, 12:41 PM
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The wartime metal shoulder title in wear in 1919 (the blue cross marks James Burns Gilbert, a member of "D" Company, 1st Bn London Scottish, photograph taken on the march from Givry to Mons in 1919, when the battalion was en route to join the Army of Occupation).
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Old 03-11-17, 01:38 PM
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Private Clissold Graham Fluck
KiA 1st July 1916
According to his service number, it looks like he joined-up Dec '15 to Jan '16. Perhaps the new chaps sometimes had to make do, at least pre-embarkation.
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Last edited by Drew; 04-11-17 at 03:33 AM.
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Old 03-11-17, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew View Post
Private Clissold Graham Fluck
KiA 1st July 1916
According his service number, it looks like he joined-up Dec '15 to Jan '16. Perhaps the new chaps sometimes had to make do, at least pre-embarkation.
....and his brother of the same battalion...
© IWM (HU 122190
Private Marcus Graham Fluck 2500. 14th Battalion, London Regiment (London Scottish). Death: 9 May 1915,

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  #11  
Old 03-11-17, 04:43 PM
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Gentlemen,

Thanks one and all for your points, pics and posts. All hugely appreciated.

Chris, off the top of my head (and before I have a chance to access reference material) my first thoughts are that the blue on khaki title could be [WW2] 3rd Battalion London Scottish (97th Anti-Aircraft Regiment).

I’ll try to post a more comprehensive reply later this evening. Apologies for the brevity of this particular response.

Regards to all,

JT

Last edited by Jelly Terror; 03-11-17 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 03-11-17, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew View Post
That is absolutely fascinating. Thank you so much for taking the trouble to type it all out for us.

I hope you do not mind me asking about the blue on khaki embroidered title. The IWM version I saw did not come with a description of date, though I had always presumed it was from the 1917 'survey'. It is often described as WW1 in online auctions. For example, here

May I ask what your opinion is? If it were WW1 period, this would seem to contradict your statement that the London Scottish never wore embroidered titles at that period. I have, admittedly, never seen them in photos from the time.

Many thanks,

Chris
Chris,

Many thanks for your thoughts on this and for bringing the blue on khaki shoulder title into the discussion.

You may recall from your visit to the IWM, that the file in which the cloth title pattern shown in your post is housed, contains a small hand-coloured drawing, a very poor rendition of which I attach herewith. I have not posted the actual drawing, as I do not have permission so to do from the IWM, therefore my clumsy interpretation will have to suffice for now.

As you can see, the drawing clearly shows the metal 'LONDON/SCOTTISH' [Westlake 1528] shoulder title, together with the 168 Brigade, 56th London Div., red, cloth (apex down) triangle:

JT Lon Scots Interp.jpg

The reason I draw your attention to this is because even though the blue on khaki 'London Scottish' shoulder titles are included within the file, they are not specifically referred to, especially with regard to the accompanying drawing, which leads me to wonder if their presence therein is anomalous.

I refer you also to the 1960 publication, 'The Uniform of the London Scottish 1895-1959' by J. O. Robson, wherein Robson tells us that:

'After the start of the war [WWI] the shoulder title T/14/COUNTY of LONDON [Westlake 1526] had been replaced by T/14/LONDON [Westlake 1527] which was much more easily read.'

He goes on to say:

'In 1915, when the 1st Battalion was in the 1st Guards Brigade, the shoulder title 'LONDON/SCOTTISH' [Westlake 1528] was adopted.'

This seems to be congruent with the wearing of the title seen in your superb photo of Pte. Fluck, and not at all at odds with what we already know.

Evidence that the London Scottish had up until the inter-war years not worn worsted shoulder titles comes in the form of the letter below, sent to the County of London T.A.A., by G. C. K. Clowes, the officer commanding the 14th Battalion, at that time:

14th Doc.jpg

This further supports the possibility that the blue on khaki titles are misplaced within the IWM file. In addition, Robson's book on the regiment's uniform records that for 1924, on joining, the following mess kit was issued to all NCOs and privates:

1. Two Khaki Jackets
2. Kilt
3. Khaki Trews
4. Boots
5. Full Web Equipment
6. Balmoral Bonnet
7. Khaki Hose (not issued)
8. Flashes
9. Cap Badge
10. Short Puttees
11. Greatcoat
12. Kit Bag
13. Grey Hose Tops (Regimental Issue).

Each man must buy at his own expense:
1. Glengarry
2. Regimental Cane
3. Sporran
4. Khaki Spats

5. Shoulder Titles 'London Scottish'.


The shoulder title described can, in my view, refer only to one specific pattern, and from this I assume that the matter of the regularising of shoulder titles for the London Scottish had not yet been conclusively resolved. This, again, supported by Clowes' letter above, dated 4th January 1924.

In 1936/7 (apologies, unsure of exact date) when the regiment was re-designated as 'The London Scottish, The Gordon Highlanders', a worsted shoulder title was issued which took the form 'LONDON' over 'GORDON' over 'SCOTTISH'. However, Robson tells us that this title was never worn.

By 1940, no shoulder titles were worn on the BD blouse, only the divisional, brigade and unit signs.

On the reconstitution of the Territorial Army on 1st May 1947, printed shoulder titles were issued: white 'LONDON SCOTTISH' on a red ground.

In closing, I have to say that like you, I have never seen any photographic evidence to date of the blue on khaki titles in use, either Great War period or otherwise. My suspicion that it was possibly worn [WW2] by the 3rd Battalion London Scottish (97th Anti-Aircraft Regiment) is yet to be confirmed, and I shall of course post any developments on that as soon as practicable.

Regards to all,

JT

Last edited by Jelly Terror; 03-11-17 at 11:20 PM.
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Old 03-11-17, 11:14 PM
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Just a few photos of the London Scottish in 1919:

http://gmic.co.uk/topic/43995-the-14th-londons-london-
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Old 03-11-17, 11:16 PM
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Thanks very much, JT, for such an interesting and informative response. I will have to change the details on the 'London cloth shoulder title' thread.

Actually, I did not see any files when I went to the IWM. When I had got there they had already pulled all the titles I wanted from storage. All I got to see were the titles in little, individual zip-lock bags. I wasn't even allowed to take them out to photograph. I was not dealing with a curator so perhaps that had something to do with it. I am a little disappointed now. I wonder what other information I have missed.

There were a lot of things mixed up in there that were not WW1, which also supports your theory. Many of them were faded and had definitely been displayed at some point. It was as if things had got 'put back' in the wrong place.

Many thanks again,

Chris

Last edited by Drew; 03-11-17 at 11:20 PM. Reason: Spelling
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Old 03-11-17, 11:18 PM
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That is a great thread with many wonderful photos, Leigh. Many thanks indeed.

Chris
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