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  #91  
Old 19-10-20, 01:33 AM
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Hi Mike

Thanks again for all the very useful information. I used to have T T-M's article somewhere but I think it was only Part 1 anyway. An emailed copy would be much appreciated.

Yes, I can imagine that the civil servants might have had other things to occupy their minds!
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  #92  
Old 20-10-20, 10:31 AM
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Default More paperwork!

Hi all

Here are some more examples of paperwork, etc. that went with the issue of the On War Service badge(s). Anyone got the missing badge?

Presumably this is the 1915 item and I wonder if the "K" prefix is linked to a region or trade. I know that this issue has been canvassed before but can't recall what the consensus was.

As the 1915 National Registration card gives and address and occupation it might allow someone with an Ancestry subscription to give more details on Liddell. No doubt the "Senr" addition was to avoid a younger "R Liddell" claiming the protection given by the badge...

Comments invited!
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  #93  
Old 20-10-20, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
Presumably this is the 1915 item and I wonder if the "K" prefix is linked to a region or trade. I know that this issue has been canvassed before but can't recall what the consensus was.
From an old thread :
‘K’ series = “Thomas Fattorini Bolton”, “J. R. Gaunt & Son Ltd London” & “Woolley & Co (Birm) Ltd”

The modern consensus appears to support the view expressed in this post :

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...9&postcount=12


Thanks again for posting the documentation , it gives a clearer idea of the process.

.
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  #94  
Old 20-10-20, 10:35 PM
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Hi Mike

In the words of those dreadful infomercials (surely a contradiction in terms...) "But wait, there's more..."

I have a few more certificates with and without badges. Will post a few later on!

Thanks again for sending the article so promptly.
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  #95  
Old 21-10-20, 02:38 PM
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Default A little aside

Mike & Dumdum. Please accept my apologies (but please allow me the indulgence) for making a deviation from the main line of argument that is presently under discussion. It is sort of relevant. Consider the 1914, and more particularly at the 1915 badges, which were initially enamelled and then for economy in their production were issued in the brass versions. I have always thought that the 1914 & 1915 enamelled versions are both elegant and beautifully manufactured...a joy to look at. The 1916 badge is functional but still distinctive in its design. However, as you are aware, my collecting focus is on the ‘Unofficial War Service Badges’...some have unique and distinct designs.....others are ‘variations on a theme’.....but all are wonderful things to study. Last week I was very fortunate to pick up a 1939 War Service badge for Fairfield Shipbuilders of Govan, Glasgow. I have the war service badge for Fairfield’s from c1915 also. When placed side by side, the 1915 badge has an elegance of its own....simple but a lovely badge whereas for me the 1939 version simply lacks the ‘Je ne sais quois’ and I have noticed this before with other companies...not economy of scale but no real effort with the design. I can understand the necessity of simplifying the Official WW1 issue badges but I prefer the 1914 / 15 badges to those of 1939 onwards. I am sure others will disagree. However, great to see a badge where it’s owner is identified, particularly the First World War badges.
So, now we reach the end of the ‘aside’.....please forgive my breaking the flow of your discussion.
Cheers
James
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Last edited by Charliedog012012; 21-10-20 at 11:23 PM. Reason: To clarify
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  #96  
Old 22-10-20, 01:36 AM
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Hi Charliedog

Not a problem. I agree that the unofficial badges have a lot to recommend them and they have the added pleasure of sometimes allowing you to identify the individual firm for which they were made.

Sometimes you do just get an infuriating set of initials ("A.L. & S") and it can take ages to get....nowhere!

Given that, in theory, these badges were illegal or at the very least had no real authority to them (especially after 1916) they certainly seem to have cranked them out!

Fatttorini's must have made a lot of money out of "Bloggs and Sons" (no, they don't exist as far as I know...) making badges for their workers.

Equally compelling are the ones that just say "Working for His Majesty/ 1915"

This begs the point that these unnamed, vaguely worded badges must have been more than abused as, if the wearer was in a protected occupation, why weren't they wearing a 1914 or 1915 badge?

Anyone like to venture an answer?
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  #97  
Old 22-10-20, 07:52 AM
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Firstly , I'll use this post as an excuse to show the magnificent Templeborough 1916 badge (originally posted by DD).

Regarding the 'unofficial' OWS badges , remember these were produced for 'local' work forces and apart from the obvious "white feather" connection there would also be other reasons.

The badges would show that a factory/company/worker was being "patriotic" and would also be a subtle advertisement . A 'fancy' or easily identifiable badge would be good P.R for a company.

While we may struggle with the various initials , I would think that they would be very well known in the towns/cities where they were worn. An Edinburgh company produced shells, submarine and aircraft parts, tank and electrical equipment such as mobile search lights and minesweeping units , Bruce Peebles & Co. , I don't know if they issued badges but how many people apart from Scots would connect BP&Co. with them ? (I lived less than 1 mile from the factory).

Another point to consider is the number of these badges that were issued/produced , some small /specialist companies may have only had 10-20 workers so might produce better badges . The very large firms with thousands of workers may have kept to basic badges to keep costs down.

Initially the 'unofficial' badges would be a source of 'local' pride and the definitions of "protected occupations" was pretty vague until proper control and regulation was introduced with the 1915 badge. The abuse of the 'unofficial' badges was a major reason for them being banned and conscription also reduced the eligibilty of many workers to claim "protected" status.
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  #98  
Old 23-10-20, 07:21 AM
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Hi Mike

Thanks for your post and you've AGAIN solved a mystery! I have a badge that is "B.P. & Co"!

Just got to put my hand on it.......

That badge that you've posted is a real treasure, I agree. I think that I worked out that the initials behind the backing plate are "T F S". The "F" is hidden but I think that it is "Thomas Firth & Sons".

IWM have one illustrated but I don't think that they've put a name to it, although they do have the owner's name to go with it. "N P F" ? No prizes for this: National Projectile Factory
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  #99  
Old 23-10-20, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
I think that I worked out that the initials behind the backing plate are "T F S". The "F" is hidden but I think that it is "Thomas Firth & Sons".

No prizes for this: National Projectile Factory

Thomas Firth & Sons owned the factory but I've always thought that :

TFS - Templeborough Factory Sheffield.

My reasoning is that when the badge is fitted in the backplate only the T & S are visible which could indicate 'Templeborough Sheffield" but would actually obscure the factory owners name (Firth).


Funny that both would fit the initials.


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Last edited by mike_vee; 23-10-20 at 07:56 AM. Reason: Added info
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  #100  
Old 23-10-20, 10:22 AM
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Hi Mike

I guess that both are possible but the backplate could, conceivably, be worn separately although there is a small tube for the pin from the 1916 badge to fit. I'll photograph the badge together and disassembled for you, if I've not already done so.

I'd only ever seen the one badge on IWM and then this one and then another on our favourite online toystore.....

Meanwhile here is another 1915 badge and cert to conjure with. I didn't bother with the front as it is unremarkable. "M" for "metals"?

No, much as Ticker said in his excellent post from a year or two back.
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  #101  
Old 23-10-20, 11:42 AM
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Being the Rotherham ‘born & bred’ lad that I am, I would go with ‘Templeborough Factory Sheffield’. Templeborough lies on the outskirts of Rotherham but is approximately equidistant between Rotherham and Sheffield. The route between Rotherham and Sheffield was a mass of Iron & Steel producers and associated products. It is no surprise that a munitions factory would be sited near Templeborough so close to the essential raw materials.
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  #102  
Old 23-10-20, 01:35 PM
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I guess that both are possible but the backplate could, conceivably, be worn separately although there is a small tube for the pin from the 1916 badge to fit. I'll photograph the badge together and disassembled for you, if I've not already done so.
The photos of the disassembled badge are here.

If I had only seen a photo of the backplate then I may have gone for "Thomas Firth & Sons" but when the two pieces are combined the letters would read National Projectile Factory Thomas Sons which doesn't make sense.

but National Projectile Factory Templeborough Sheffield seems right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
Meanwhile here is another 1915 badge and cert to conjure with. I didn't bother with the front as it is unremarkable. "M" for "metals"?

No, much as Ticker said in his excellent post from a year or two back.
The "M" series were only produced by , and marked , “J. R. Gaunt & Son Ltd London Warranted Fire Gilt” , so if the letter indicated a trade/position then it would raise a couple of points :

Why use only 13 different letters , all basically from latter half of alphabet ?

Basic logistics , some of the "series"(letters) were only produced by certain manufacturers so if a factory wanted badges for different trades/positions they could possibly have to get them from 4 or 5 manufacturers ?

Maybe , one day , a document will turn up which clarifies this but until then I think Tickers explanation is the most likely scenario.


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  #103  
Old 23-10-20, 09:52 PM
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Hi guys

Many thanks for the thoughts and I think that the letter "M" is just another co-incidence, much like the "T F S". Do you think that the backplate could have been used as a badge on its own or were the two intended to be a pairing?

The nice thing about all this is that I've learnt so much from exchanges such as this and it has got me thinking about a hobby that I truly enjoy and taken my mind off some of the "other stuff" that fills my life/ our lives at present.

A heartfelt thanks to EVERYONE who views or comments on this!

Charliedog, I've got a Rotherham badge that I'll dig out!
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  #104  
Old 24-10-20, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
Do you think that the backplate could have been used as a badge on its own or were the two intended to be a pairing?
The backplate definitely 'could' have been worn on its own but why 'would' it ?

The design was obviously intended for it to be 'paired' with the 1916 badge and to act as a frame to "show it off". The women would be proud to have done their 'patriotic duty' working in a local factory.

When I first saw them together I thought that possibly they might be worn together on "outdoor" clothing and then separated so that the basic badge could be worn on working clothes in the factory.

However :
1. Continually separating them would risk damage/loss and pin pricks to the fingers.

2. Based on the few certificates available the backplate and certificates were presented to the workers in December 1918 when their employment ended due to returning servicemen taking over their jobs.

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  #105  
Old Yesterday, 09:18 AM
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Hi Mike

Yes, a fiddly exercise to separate them I agree and I was very careful not to overstress the pin...

What a lot of hidden history these items must have seen. Have you listened to the IWM interviews with former "munitionettes"? I did so a year or two back now but am planning to repeat the exercise.
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