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  #1  
Old 02-03-20, 04:04 PM
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Default ARMY REMOUNT SERVICE (2nd & 3rd Issue) WW1 & WW2

Hello guys n gals,

I have a question to ask, which is causing me a problem, as no one can help me at the moment, so i am asking the forum as a whole.

Army Remounts Service (ASR)

I have acquired an ARS badge, which is slightly different from all the others i have seen, yet it seems correct.
Well, to me it does, which doesn't mean much really.

The problem is as follows;

The images of the following ARS "Cap" badge described in 2 book is as follows;
Kipling & King ARS (3rd issued badge) (KK.1046)[/I]
Badges & Insignia of the RASC & RCT & Their Predecessors (2-68 page 18)

This is the problem that i have;
At the bottom of both badges, but not explained in both books.

(2) An oval inscribed Army Remount Service surmounted by an Imperial crown. In the centre a horse rampant. In gilding metal (fig 1046). Also in bronze.

In all the images i have seen of both the early & late badges (1046 & 1047);

Within the oval strap/buckle; Army Remount Service (but below at the furthest point of the badges is (what i can only describe as "A Star")

I have come across the following ARS badge, in Bronze (KK 1046; or 2-68)

With a "BUCKLE" and not "A STAR" at the lowest point of the badge.

The badge in question is mm'd J.R. Gaunt London (curving upwards L-R)

Take a close look at the images and see if you can help me. It's one of 2 things,
1. Copy/Fake
2. A unseen cap badge [meaning that the other badges could be either collar badges or earlier cap badges]

Has anyone else got one of these badges in their collections which they know about ?

Thanks in advance

Kind regards
FBK
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20200301_125957.jpg (59.1 KB, 36 views)
File Type: jpg 20200220_214716.jpg (45.5 KB, 48 views)
File Type: jpg 20200220_214603.jpg (25.6 KB, 36 views)
File Type: jpg 20200220_214645.jpg (38.3 KB, 38 views)
File Type: jpg 20200214_194158.jpg (71.2 KB, 70 views)
File Type: jpg 20200214_194129.jpg (70.2 KB, 45 views)
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  #2  
Old 02-03-20, 05:26 PM
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Hi Ken
I have exactly the same badge, curved mm top rear, bottom strap buckle and on two tangs. It was item 129 at Bosleys 29/08/2018 badge auction.
Don't know if it is possible to track down their description on their website, but a member may have the auction catalogue.

I hope I've been of some help.
Mark
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  #3  
Old 02-03-20, 05:35 PM
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Managed to get Bosleys description whilst dinner is being prepared. Doesn't tell you much though..............................

Army Remount Service rare WW1 OSD bronze cap badge. A fine cast crowned oval ‘ARMY REMOUNT SERVICE’; left facing rampant horse to centre. J.R. Gaunt London
Blades
VGC
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  #4  
Old 02-03-20, 06:46 PM
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This Guant mark isnt in the Forum's maker marks file. The badge looks well made in my opinion. Dont forget though, both books you mention aren't 100% correct. This is not a dig, we all make mistakes and we nowadays have it easier to research. We have the internet.
Andy
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  #5  
Old 02-03-20, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman View Post
This Guant mark isnt in the Forum's maker marks file. The badge looks well made in my opinion. Dont forget though, both books you mention aren't 100% correct. This is not a dig, we all make mistakes and we nowadays have it easier to research. We have the internet.
Andy
The makers mark section is very incomplete.
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  #6  
Old 02-03-20, 08:53 PM
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I thought it might be Phil.
Andy
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  #7  
Old 02-03-20, 11:17 PM
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I had the attached badge which came from the surplus Gaunt stuff offloaded by the NAM. I wish I’d have kept it now, it’s a lovely item.
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  #8  
Old 03-03-20, 01:18 AM
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Hello guy's

firstly may i thank you all for your replies;

Marc, It's nice to know there are more out there.

Keith, likewise that now makes three badges, all well made and as you have stated; Possibly Gaunt originals from the NAM.

Andy; In answer to your questions.
a. I too looked at the Forum Maker Mark section and found the J.R. Gaunt London mark, raising upwards left to right. (further down the page)

b. Yes i agree the maker mark section isn't fully complete, but I also need to add a number of badge MM's into this section. I will attempt to correct this soon, by adding my Transport badges into the relative sections.
I have some unusual ones indeed so will have to place them up here for the experts to scrutinise.

c. I also agree that we have to be very careful when buying and checking the books that have been written on badges and insignia, as there are errors.

This is why I am asking the question, so as to see if we can correct this problem. I believe that in almost all badges with the "BELT" there is a "BUCKLE" at the lowest point (I know that in some cases the motto differs. But, it still goes without saying That a "BUCKLE" is present on all of the ASC badges and RASC badges of this period.

So, do we have Collar badges listed in the books by error or did the powers that be change the cap badge later, when they realised the mistake ??

Would you be in agreement that on the basis of this badge appearing in the system that there could be 4 badges designed for the ARS ?

I think it's too well made to be a duffer, which is why i asked the question, but we'll see what happens over the next few days, ....

Again, thank you all for your replies

FBK

PS.
Just in-case you ask this question; The ARS collar badges actually come as a pair, horses facing left & right

Last edited by Fatboy Ken; 03-03-20 at 01:23 AM. Reason: Added Post Script
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  #9  
Old 03-03-20, 09:06 AM
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Hi,

This one that I own is the same pattern as Kipling & King 1046, without the strap and garter. It is maker marked on the blades, Lambournes Birmingham. I have always had my doubts about it as I was unaware Lambournes did Officer badges. But it meets the pattern in K&K, even down to the star device on the bottom of the circle.

Apologies for the photo's, they were the correct way up on my phone's gallery.

Andy
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20200303_085746.jpg (67.4 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg 20200303_085817.jpg (60.4 KB, 40 views)

Last edited by Cleeman; 03-03-20 at 02:02 PM.
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  #10  
Old 03-03-20, 05:20 PM
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Ken, I have the attached ARS badges. The first is bronze and has the star and horse facing left and a crown. 2nd is in GM-WM and has a cypher on the top. 3rd is all GM with cypher and the 4th is BZE-WM with cypher. All three have sliders.
So the 1st could be a collar badge???

Jez
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 38 ARS bze#.jpg (46.8 KB, 28 views)
File Type: jpg 39 KK1947 ARS gm-wm#.jpg (47.7 KB, 27 views)
File Type: jpg 40 ARS gm#.jpg (49.5 KB, 34 views)
File Type: jpg 41 ARS bze-wm#.jpg (43.4 KB, 32 views)
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Last edited by engr9266; 03-03-20 at 05:25 PM.
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  #11  
Old 03-03-20, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engr9266 View Post
Ken, I have the attached ARS badges. The first is bronze and has the star and horse facing left and a crown. 2nd is in GM-WM and has a cypher on the top. 3rd is all GM with cypher and the 4th is BZE-WM with cypher. All three have sliders.
So the 1st could be a collar badge???

Jez
Badges 3 and 4 are the common goggle-eyed horse fakes.
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  #12  
Old 03-03-20, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleeman View Post
Hi,

This one that I own is the same pattern as Kipling & King 1046, without the strap and garter. It is maker marked on the blades, Lambournes Birmingham. I have always had my doubts about it as I was unaware Lambournes did Officer badges. But it meets the pattern in K&K, even down to the star device on the bottom of the circle.

Apologies for the photo's, they were the correct way up on my phone's gallery.

Andy
The badge is different from the one pictured in K&K. Note the position of the horses head, it’s ears, bottom leg. The badge pictured also seems to have had an extra attachment point on the mane?

Additionally the die is not the known Lambourne ARS as per the badge with the red background. The only OSD Lambourne badge I know of is a North Devon Hussars. It is made from the same die as the one used to make OR badges and is stamped Lambourne & Co Birmingham into the back of the badge itself behind the crown. Unlike this badge (and Lambournes in general) it is actually good quality.

Seeing these marked blades jogged my memory. They were discussed in this thread some years ago:

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...=Marked+blades

The Essex badge shown in that thread is again not from the known Lambourne Essex Regt die, a lovely example of which is shown in Andy’s (Nozzer) album here: https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ctureid=177338

I look forward to hearing Andy’s input on this as he has been collecting and researching Lambourne longer than I.

Last edited by Luke H; 04-03-20 at 01:11 AM. Reason: Spelling
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  #13  
Old 10-03-20, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleeman View Post
Hi,

This one that I own is the same pattern as Kipling & King 1046, without the strap and garter. It is maker marked on the blades, Lambournes Birmingham. I have always had my doubts about it as I was unaware Lambournes did Officer badges. But it meets the pattern in K&K, even down to the star device on the bottom of the circle.

Apologies for the photo's, they were the correct way up on my phone's gallery.

Andy
Not one that I have come across before. My first observation is that the finish looks very clean for a hundred year old badge, but that in itself means nothing as mint badges surface all the time.

Can you show a clearer shot of the makers mark? A trick is to use fine chalk to show the detail and it is washed off very easily.

Luke, The Essex badge you show in the link is certainly not from the same die as the Lambourne other ranks (OR's) cap badges and again it is the first Officers example that I have seen. I would like to see it a bit closer, but I don't think Andy is a member any more? Sadly, there are some very convincing fake Officers Service Dress (OSD) badges on the market now.
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  #14  
Old 11-03-20, 04:05 PM
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Hi,

Further image of the makers mark, using fine chalk to enhance it.

Apologies the upload keeps rotating the images from my camera and files.
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  #15  
Old 13-03-20, 02:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleeman View Post
Hi,

Further image of the makers mark, using fine chalk to enhance it.

Apologies the upload keeps rotating the images from my camera and files.
Fascinating. I do not doubt that mark is absolutely original.

This interesting North Devon Hussars recently entered my collection. Initially I thought it was on unusual WM replacement loops but after getting it in the hand I’m convinced they are the originals and after making enquiries I’ve been told it may be an officer’s badge which has lost its gilt.

As you can see the mark is exactly the same including the unusual shaped O and the gap to the S without an apostrophe. Now very interestingly this makers stamp is different to the ones used to mark sliders Lambourne’s Birmingham.
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