RCAF returns to traditional ranks

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally Posted by Bill A

If that change materializes, I wonder if CF kit will become collectable? A lot of it around, but there were some trial/experimental bits that are already hard to find.

The CF uniform is already collectible, as far as I am concerned, and a different and distinct uniform from the DEU.

I think if there was a really good reference book on the full range of CF uniforms, their value might increase even more.

It was interesting to see the attention paid to East German uniforms after reunification, but I wonder if that wasn't because of their resemblance to Wehrmacht era uniforms. The material was often shoddy, but of course the price for collectors was always right as tons of the stuff flooded the markets. And for what it was, the NVA (as the East German Army was known) had a not unattractive set of dress and field uniforms.

I don't know what the legacy of the CF will be in the fullness of time, but if one can disassociate the uniforms from some of the truly awful photographs of men in dire need of a haircut and neckshave, history may judge them more kindly than the memories of those who wore them.

[shootemup]

To the complaint RE: new uniforms, but no new boots, following that logic, why have dress uniforms at all? There is a reason for the buttons and bows, and if you can't handle it, maybe you are in the wrong line of work?

However, change is inevitable. History repeats itself. And the collectors rejoice...for there are "new worlds to conquer".

My only thought is, they should have had a pearl grey aiguillette made up to match the new rank, badges and titles, and buttons, instead of the gold.

[servicepub]

There is little additional cost to this new uniform. The material is a medium weight which will replace the current heavy weight. Once that decision was made then it was simple to say that, as we are introducing a new material then let's change the colour. This version of blue is darker than the CF DEU blue but not quite as dark as the pre-unification RCAF blue.
If the Army goes to khaki it will be when they introduce a medium-weight cloth also.
C

[ddaydodger]

Originally Posted by shootemup

To the complaint RE: new uniforms, but no new boots, following that logic, why have dress uniforms at all? There is a reason for the buttons and bows, and if you can't handle it, maybe you are in the wrong line of work?

However, change is inevitable. History repeats itself. And the collectors rejoice...for there are "new worlds to conquer".

My only thought is, they should have had a pearl grey aiguillette made up to match the new rank, badges and titles, and buttons, instead of the gold.

Wrong line of work- probably, but I have been at it for 35 years or so, so I may stick with it. And all I see is troops suffer, hurt and forced to spend their hard earned money on essential kit just so a few very vocal people can have new dress uniforms/ badges/ pips etc. I am a big fan of change- useful change, and I have a hard time supporting these kind of decisions when army courses are being ordered to be cut to save money. I wear my dress uniform on average 3 times a year- Nov 11th, the Christmas Dinner and maybe a parade in the summer. I get more use out of my mess kit- perhaps we would be better off following the British Army idea of a one time grant for mess kit on promotion to Sgt/ PO2?
Collectors rejoice? How many collectors do you know collect CFs? or DEU?
Little cost? I wonder what it will cost to produce a new dress manual? Or posters with the new rank structure? I just pulled down 15 "old" ones around my office. How many trees will we kill this time? Every Army officer was just given a new tunic- $153.82 x how many army officers? Every new tunic comes with army buttons which go straight into the garbage because we wear regimental buttons- what a waste!! I was just given new PT kit because it HAD to have the new 3 Div badges. I've worn it once. I didn't pay for it, the money had to come from somewhere? $100/ person for at least 200 people, probably more. That's a lot of money that could have been better spent. (Yes I know where the money came from.)
Rant ends!!

[ddaydodger]

Originally Posted by servicepub

There is little additional cost to this new uniform. The material is a medium weight which will replace the current heavy weight. Once that decision was made then it was simple to say that, as we are introducing a new material then let's change the colour. This version of blue is darker than the CF DEU blue but not quite as dark as the pre-unification RCAF blue.
If the Army goes to khaki it will be when they introduce a medium-weight cloth also.
C

I think you missed the dig: If the RCN and RCAF adopt traditional tan summer uniforms maybe the army can follow suit. Hey! Maybe we could make it rifle green, all in the same style- but wait- didn't we try this once before?

[Walt P]

In my opinion, this is a fiasco & waste of money in a time when our government/CAF/DND should be more budget minded. Screw the buttons & bows. In the grand scheme, the colour, shade, fabric weight of the DEU uniform is irrelevant to job performance. We can't afford ammo to train our land forces, our ships are rusting, our SAR aircraft are at the end of their operational capabilities (not to mention the Seakings), our fighter jets are nearly obsolete, most of the army's LSVW are in need of replacement, the recruiting system is in a state of shambles, and as I understand, the morale of the troops is low. The list goes on....

I was proud to wear my uniforms (greens x 2, tans, work dress, garrison, combats), and I felt confident that I was provided with the resources to effectively perform my duties. At the end of the day, it didn't matter what order of dress I was wearing. The uniform does not make the man/woman.

Walt

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally Posted by Walt P

In my opinion, this is a fiasco & waste of money in a time when our government/CAF/DND should be more budget minded. Screw the buttons & bows. In the grand scheme, the colour, shade, fabric weight of the DEU uniform is irrelevant to job performance. We can't afford ammo to train our land forces, our ships are rusting, our SAR aircraft are at the end of their operational capabilities (not to mention the Seakings), our fighter jets are nearly obsolete, most of the army's LSVW are in need of replacement, the recruiting system is in a state of shambles, and as I understand, the morale of the troops is low. The list goes on....

I was proud to wear my uniforms (greens x 2, tans, work dress, garrison, combats), and I felt confident that I was provided with the resources to effectively perform my duties. At the end of the day, it didn't matter what order of dress I was wearing. The uniform does not make the man/woman.

Walt

How proud would you - or troops today - be to be asked to wear nothing but coveralls? Cheapest solution but anyone suggesting a uniform isn't a source of pride isn't being sincere. As the one who issues out the dress uniforms in my regiment, I can speak to the impatience of the young troops who haven't gotten theirs yet. Their perspective is a bit different than the 30 and 35 year vets who have been to the round of annual parades many, many times and for whom polishing the "buttons and bows" is now tedium. But the Army exists to put those young 20 year olds into harm's way - what we do, we do largely for them. And from what I can tell, they can't wait to get a DEU - though strangely, fewer of them seem to show up for parade once they get it...

Worthy to point out too that if uniforms in general weren't considered an essential element of team-building, command and control, employee satisfaction, etc., you wouldn't have so many of them everywhere else, from Fire, Police and EMS to Canada Post and UPS to McDonald's and Walmart and everyone in between.

The CF gets ripped for not thinking through purchases and decisions, and then when it does give thought to something, it seems like the sticks come out for that too. Whatever money is being spent on this will be a drop in the bucket compared to replacing HMCS Protecteur, the CF-18s, or upgrading the LSVW. It should be considered an easy and long overdue win, not an unwanted intrusion into the budget. Hopefully the rest follows in good time.

[ddaydodger]

No one is saying that we don't need a dress uniform, what we are saying is that we don't need a new dress uniform. The one we have (had) was perfectly fine. In these days of fiscal restraint, the army budget is being cut 25% over 5 years, do we really need to waste money on new buttons and bows? Can't we make do with gold rank stripes? Or is this just pettiness: "The navy got new rank; what about us?" Keeping up with the Jones gets unnecessarily expensive, and is a little childish! I expect better from my senior leadership.

"Defence Watch

One of the things that Defence Watch readers noticed about the news reports on the RCAF's rank and insignia changes was that there was no indication of a timetable for the process.

So I asked that question of the RCAF and here is the answer:

"The pearl-grey rank colours, insignia, shoulder-titles and embroidery will become available in the military procurement system in March 2015," a RCAF spokesman told Defence Watch. "The changes will first be reflected on 1 April 2015 when RCAF members begin to wear new epaulettes reflecting the changes on their summer uniforms. Uniform tailoring will also commence in April 2015 and will be completed by Battle of Britain Sunday in 2015." "

[Walt P]

Originally Posted by Michael Dorosh

How proud would you - or troops today - be to be asked to wear nothing but coveralls? Cheapest solution but anyone suggesting a uniform isn't a source of pride isn't being sincere. As the one who issues out the dress uniforms in my regiment, I can speak to the impatience of the young troops who haven't gotten theirs yet. Their perspective is a bit different than the 30 and 35 year vets who have been to the round of annual parades many, many times and for whom polishing the "buttons and bows" is now tedium. But the Army exists to put those young 20 year olds into harm's way - what we do, we do largely for them. And from what I can tell, they can't wait to get a DEU - though strangely, fewer of them seem to show up for parade once they get it...

Worthy to point out too that if uniforms in general weren't considered an essential element of team-building, command and control, employee satisfaction, etc., you wouldn't have so many of them everywhere else, from Fire, Police and EMS to Canada Post and UPS to McDonald's and Walmart and everyone in between.

The CF gets ripped for not thinking through purchases and decisions, and then when it does give thought to something, it seems like the sticks come out for that too. Whatever money is being spent on this will be a drop in the bucket compared to replacing HMCS Protecteur, the CF-18s, or upgrading the LSVW. It should be considered an easy and long overdue win, not an unwanted intrusion into the budget. Hopefully the rest follows in good time.

Not AT ALL my sentiment, nor what I stated. To echo DDAYDODGER's opinion, there's nothing wrong with the current RCAF DEU. Although the money spent on this project may only be "a drop in the bucket" in the grand scheme of things, the expenditure is not a priority, and the finances can be much better allocated. Perhaps you have not experienced the result of fiscal restraints at your unit, however many others have.

I respect your opinions, and I don't intend to get into a pissing contest. Let's agree to disagree! Cheers,

Walt

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally Posted by Walt P

Not AT ALL my sentiment, nor what I stated. To echo DDAYDODGER's opinion, there's nothing wrong with the current RCAF DEU. Although the money spent on this project may only be "a drop in the bucket" in the grand scheme of things, the expenditure is not a priority, and the finances can be much better allocated. Perhaps you have not experienced the result of fiscal restraints at your unit, however many others have.

I respect your opinions, and I don't intend to get into a pissing contest. Let's agree to disagree! Cheers,

Walt

Not what you stated?

it didn't matter what order of dress I was wearing. The uniform does not make the man/woman.

I'm happy to agree to disagree, but you seem to be distancing yourself from your own words. Uniforms either matter, or they don't. If they do, then it is no hardship to me to see them done "right."

If anyone really wants to play the "budget card" on this, they could do so on just about anything. Abolish the WO's and Sgt's messes, for example. Sure, you say, they are paid for by dues. Does that include the property taxes, electricity and water bills? Wouldn't the buildings/rooms/facilities across the country be better used as facilities for training - or PTSD treatment - or the homeless? Can't WOs and Sgts eat their meals with their troops, and go drinking downtown? What about the officers?

Or are some traditions worth preserving and dare I say - cherishing?

The great thing about political discussions is you can always bend them as far as you want to make your own point.

[ddaydodger]

"If anyone really wants to play the "budget card" on this, they could do so on just about anything. Abolish the WO's and Sgt's messes, for example. Sure, you say, they are paid for by dues. Does that include the property taxes, electricity and water bills? Wouldn't the buildings/rooms/facilities across the country be better used as facilities for training - or PTSD treatment - or the homeless? Can't WOs and Sgts eat their meals with their troops, and go drinking downtown? What about the officers?"

Funny- that is exactly what is happening across the country, including Mewata. There is no money to fix the Sgt & WO mess, so they have moved in with the officers. My last posting the Officers Mess closed so they moved in with the Sgt & WOs. Then that mess had to close due to budget cut backs and we all moved into the Jr Ranks mess. Most bases are going to a single mess hall due to cut backs, yet there seems to be lots of money for buttons and bows.
Some traditions are worth preserving, but some are not. The hard part is deciding which. Either way you are going to upset someone. Bringing back "traditions" that haven't been seen in almost half a century- is that really a "tradition" worth preserving?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally Posted by ddaydodger

Some traditions are worth preserving, but some are not. The hard part is deciding which. Either way you are going to upset someone. Bringing back "traditions" that haven't been seen in almost half a century- is that really a "tradition" worth preserving?

I think the point we may all have some common ground on is that invariably those questions are firmly in the eye of the beholder.

I won't attempt to defend "buttons and bows" and questions of morale as I know it is a difficult fight. I've also argued the other side of the fence in the past. When the Scottish Regiments in the UK were amalgamated there was a very strong outpouring of public sentiment (certainly if you read the regimental association newsletters) against it, but it probably makes little economic sense to have a large standing army with multiple regiments who essentially do the same things. I could see the British Army's need for change in other words. I get the feeling people would rather pay for health care than regimental badges and sporrans.

There are intangibles in the conversation - regimental pride and battle honours and all the rest, but the CEF unfortunately proved that you can ditch your Army's traditions almost entirely wholesale at the start of a war and earn a very good reputation by their deeds by the end of it. I suspect it is more complicated than that, and some battalions fought very hard to preserve some pre-war traditions - though those were largely inherited from the British and I suspect we are veering well off topic by now, for which I apologize.

We are all here because we are invested in this somehow, so I appreciate hearing the views of others - ddaydodger, Walt et al, I consider this time well spent and appreciate your views. I'm obviously enthusiastic about the changes and certainly sensitive to the rights of others not to be, so hope I can be forgiven if it seems I am trying too hard to change minds - not my place at all. The discussion has been interesting and it is good for me to be aware of some of the other considerations as this thing moves forward.

[Walt P]

We are all here because we are invested in this somehow

Michael,

Thank you. We're all here because we care. We remember,

Walt

[eliminator]

Originally Posted by servicepub

There is little additional cost to this new uniform. The material is a medium weight which will replace the current heavy weight. Once that decision was made then it was simple to say that, as we are introducing a new material then let's change the colour. This version of blue is darker than the CF DEU blue but not quite as dark as the pre-unification RCAF blue.
If the Army goes to khaki it will be when they introduce a medium-weight cloth also.
C

So, the RCAF is getting a new tunic (and pants?) rather than just replace it the current insignia? And it will be of a different shade of blue than the current offering?

Interestingly, of the three elements, only the RCAF has both a heavy weigh and lightweight option. Perhaps the reduction to one tunic/pants combo would be lauded as a cost reduction....

[CFMartin]

So other than the ranks, will qualification badges such as pilot wings be changed to a different color as well?