Rank of Staff QuarterMaster Sergeant

[cossack]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Hi Andy, I thought I had already answered this question for you. Here is the RMLI chart.

Hi Toby,
Sorry I hadn't realised that was the RMLI chart - so I'm now assuming it is the crown & crossed rifles above the 3 sergeant stripes?
Thanks....Andy

[cossack]

Originally Posted by RCN

Hi Andy,

I have a photo of an RMLI Gunnery Serg't taken in the 1930's if that helps, so I will attach it. He wears Crossed guns, Crown above Star below, similar to the RN Gummer's Mate rate badge.

If I locate any from the Victorian period in the 'Navy & Army Illustrated' I will scan & post. Not all of the volumes have index tho, so have to go thru them individually & I have 12 vols!

Bryan

Hi Bryan,
A very nice picture! I would still love to see any pics you might find from the Victorian period but don't go out of your way to search - I have my fingers crossed that a pic of my Great-Grandfather might appear
Regards.....Andy

[RCN]

Originally Posted by cossack

Hi Bryan,
A very nice picture! I would still love to see any pics you might find from the Victorian period but don't go out of your way to search - I have my fingers crossed that a pic of my Great-Grandfather might appear
Regards.....Andy

'The Navy & Army Illustrated' photos of men (officers & men) are very good. Many are named.
I have been thru my vols many times & have indexed all of the Navy named photos, but not the Army photos. I will have a look in the indexes I have & see what is there. If I come across any I will scan & post. It may take me a while tho....

Bryan

[cossack]

Originally Posted by RCN

'The Navy & Army Illustrated' photos of men (officers & men) are very good. Many are named.
I have been thru my vols many times & have indexed all of the Navy named photos, but not the Army photos. I will have a look in the indexes I have & see what is there. If I come across any I will scan & post. It may take me a while tho....

Bryan

I am looking for a Sergeant-Instructor Thomas Jones or Colour-Sergeant Thomas Casey in the naval records just in case you have them already!

Regards....Andy

[RCN]

Originally Posted by cossack

I am looking for a Sergeant-Instructor Thomas Jones or Colour-Sergeant Thomas Casey in the naval records just in case you have them already!

Regards....Andy

They are both RMLI Musketry Instructors? The 'N &A I' vols I have is 1896 - 1902. Does that fit your time frame for these two men?

Bryan

[cossack]

Originally Posted by RCN

They are both RMLI Musketry Instructors? The 'N &A I' vols I have is 1896 - 1902. Does that fit your time frame for these two men?

Bryan

Hi Bryan,
Just my luck, that is just outside the time frame I need - it was pre-1894 I am looking for!
Thanks anyway.....Andy

[RCN]

Originally Posted by cossack

Hi Bryan,
Just my luck, that is just outside the time frame I need - it was pre-1894 I am looking for!
Thanks anyway.....Andy

Andy, I will have a look in the first two vols & see what turns up. Sometimes earlier articles/photos are included. ie: say its an anniversary of a particular campaign, such as Egypt, East & West Africa etc.

Bryan

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by cossack

Hi Toby,
Sorry I hadn't realised that was the RMLI chart - so I'm now assuming it is the crown & crossed rifles above the 3 sergeant stripes?
Thanks....Andy

Hi Andy,

Crown and crossed rifles with 3 stripes for RMLI Colour Sergeant Musketry Instructor and just 3 stripes and crossed rifles for Musketry Instructor. The gunnery sergeants had the crossed guns as opposed to rifles and as their specialization related primarily to on board ship their badge was more similar to the RN Gunnery ratings than was a Musketry Sergeant.

[cossack]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Hi Andy,

Crown and crossed rifles with 3 stripes for RMLI Colour Sergeant Musketry Instructor and just 3 stripes and crossed rifles for Musketry Instructor. The gunnery sergeants had the crossed guns as opposed to rifles and as their specialization related primarily to on board ship their badge was more similar to the RN Gunnery ratings than was a Musketry Sergeant.

The thing that has been perplexing me is the 4 stripes inverted on the right cuff with crossed rifles & crown above - there are some pictures here - http://www.rm-badges.com/photos.php
There is also reference there to 1st & 2nd class Sergeant-Instructors of Musketry just to add to the confusion?
I need to look at my Great-grandfathers service record again to see exactly what is written there but I'm sure it is just Sergeant-Instructor of Musketry. He must have been fairly highly thought of as he is one of the judges on the RMLI sports days

[RCN]

Here is a CDV of a Quartermaster Serg't Durham Light Infantry:

Just for reference purposes, I found this photo of the 3/6th City of Londons, taken in 1915. Pictured among the chaps is CQMS Sharpe, clearly showing his chevrons and crown.

Thought it might be of interest:

CQMS Sharpe.JPG 6th City of London.jpg

Regards,

PJ

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by RCN

Here is a CDV of a Quartermaster Serg't Durham Light Infantry:

Yes at that time (pre 1881) he did not wear a star above, but just the plain 4 chevrons. His immediate superior, the battalion's 'Sergeant Major', wore the same 4 chevrons but with a crown above. After 1881 a star was added to the QMS badge of rank and the 4 chevrons removed from the Sgt Maj. This was not a very satisfactory differential and there is clear evidence that recognising this, some battalions added more gold lace to the cuffs of the Sgt Maj to compensate for his less showy badge of rank. It was not until 1915 that the situation was resolved with the battalion's Sergeant Major being re-titled as 'Regimental Sergeant Major' (in recognition that there were now Company Sergeants Major) and his badge becoming the full coat of arms that had been worn by Foot Guards equivalents (and some others) for a considerable period.

[RCN]

Thanks for resurrecting this topic & your explanation Toby!
I had forgotten about posting this.

I have seen photos of Victorian Army Serg't Major wearing the single Victorian Crown worn on the lower sleeve. I will try to photo one & post for info.

Bryan

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by RCN

Thanks for resurrecting this topic & your explanation Toby!
I had forgotten about posting this.

I have seen photos of Victorian Army Serg't Major wearing the single Victorian Crown worn on the lower sleeve. I will try to photo one & post for info.

Bryan

Yes and that would be correct after 1881, Bryan, which is well within Queen Victoria's reign, so I am not sure what your point is?

[Alex Cartwright]

Originally Posted by RCN

Well I guess I opened a real discussion (or big mess) here!

But its nice to see so many responses!

I have had a look at the charts given above & come to the conclusion that Sergeants {ie: QM Serg't, OR Serg't, St Serg't, Colour Serg't, Troop Serg't etc} wore three chevrons point down, with some kind of device above, on the sleeve.

& Quarter Master Serg'ts wore 4 inverted chevrons (point upwards) on the lower sleeve with the specialty device above.

But none of the references have mentioned (Victorian) Army Pay Corps!
I guess sit was a fairly small unit?

Bryan

Having just joined on seeing this discussion I thought I could contribute with a photograph of one of my wife's ancestors (hopefully attached).

Born in 1867, this looks like (based on these posts) a Quartermaster-sergeant in the RE. Newspaper archives lead me to think that he may have served in the 1st Newcastle RE Volunteers - later he volunteered into the RAMC as a Staff Sergeant in 1915, aged about 47.

Any insights on the single four-point, or multiple five-point, stars gratefully received.