Royal Marine NCOs Hong Kong Early 20th Centruy

[Home Guard]

The pilot who was regularly my father's wing man in WW2 was a British citizen, but living in the US, He joined the USAAF and completed flight school, and just before being sent overseas was sworn in as a US citizen. He was actually born in Hong Kong where his father, a Royal Marine NCO, was stationed. He sent me this picture and I know one of the men in this picture is his father and the last name is Doe. But I do not remember which one he is nor do I know his first name. All of this told to me by the son.



I think it's a really grand picture and just thought I would share it. I cannot explain the fact they are wearing a dolman, nor do I recognize the cap badge as that of the Royal marines, but maybe so back then??? I am not very knowledgeable on early Marine uniforms except the basics as worn in Peking in 1900 during the Boxer Rebellion.

Hope you all enjoy seeing it,

Terry

[Alan O]

They are all Royal Artillery soldiers probably taken between 1905 and 1914. There is no RM connection and the majority (if not all) are SNCOs so will have some years in service.

Alan

[grey_green_acorn]

I would suggest Royal Horse Artillery.

Tim

[Toby Purcell]

Yes, Royal Horse Artillery and wearing Home Establishment dress (Britain or Ireland), so probably the posting before going to Hong Kong.

The photo shows an entire battery’s worth of senior non-commissioned officers (various grades of sergeant), who are marked by gilt cord frogging on their dolmans showing up as pale coloured in the orthochromatic film of that time. The rank and file cord frogging, being in yellow worsted, shows as very dark in that same old type of film (see photo below). The fellow with the whip is the battery sergeant major (BSM - not a warrant officer at that time) and adjacent to him is the battery quarter-master sergeant (BQMS). At that time the same rank badge was worn by both. Sat on the BSM’s other flank is his Farrier Staff Sergeant, behind whom is the Collarmaker Sergeant, and on the far end seated is the Sergeant Orderly Room Clerk (pecking order dictates). The other four sergeants are detachment commanders in charge of sub-sections (individual guns).

[mike_vee]

Royal Horse Artillery Gunner Postcard

https://talesfromthesupplydepot.blog...nner-postcard/

I'm too slow !

.

[Home Guard]

Thanks for the feedback. I was wondering if they weren't RA, as I am familiar with the RHA wearing a dolman going back to Napoleonic times. As I said in my note, what I said abut the picture is what I was told by the veteran. Maybe at one time his father was RHA and then RM or the other way around???? One thing for sure, from their countenance I would say they got the job done without any backtalk!!!!

Terry

[54Bty]

As far as I know the word Dolman is not a word used in the Royal Regiment of Artillery. The men are wearing the Royal Horse Artillery Jacket.
The description that follows the image on the internet page in post number 5 has many mistakes.

Marc

[Home Guard]

Ah, OK, thanks. A dolman is a garment like that which is worn typically by hussars, with a pelisse over it, usually draped over the left shoulder but buttoned up in cold weather. Wasn't sure what the RHA actually called it, so just deferred back to my Napoleonic interests.



Now I know I will henceforth use the proper term. Just proves, never too old to learn.

Terry

[cbuehler]

I find the terms jacket and tunic used interchangeably for the RHA garment. Dolman is completely incorrect as mentioned.
The photo opening this post is a superb representation of RHA NCOs of the time.
Note that cap cords are always worn this tunic/jacket, even when the fur busby cap is not worn. The same was the case with the Hussar regiments, which the RHA uniform essentially is.
I might add that today probably half of those NCOs would be women.
CB

[Home Guard]

CB, I have studied that picture very, very closely, and I'm sorry to say that I don't think any of them are women, let alone half!!!

Seriously, I know what you mean, and my take is - if they can do the job fine.

Terry

[Toby Purcell]

To be fair the terms Attila (also Atila) and Dolman are not “completely incorrect”, that goes too far. They are both garments of Hungarian style and known internationally by those descriptions. The British Army generally uses the English language for nomenclature so it’s hardly surprising that Dolman doesn’t appear in the RHA clothing ledgers, just as Czapka doesn’t appear in a cavalry ledger, but lancer cap does. When talking about uniform historiography it’s more convenient to use those terms rather than jacket and tunic, as it’s internationally descriptive and immediately differentiates between two frogged upper garments, one with a skirt and one without.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Home Guard

Thanks for the feedback. I was wondering if they weren't RA, as I am familiar with the RHA wearing a dolman going back to Napoleonic times. As I said in my note, what I said abut the picture is what I was told by the veteran. Maybe at one time his father was RHA and then RM or the other way around???? One thing for sure, from their countenance I would say they got the job done without any backtalk!!!!

Terry

I’m glad to help Terry and there was nothing wrong with the uniform terminology that you used. We weren’t debating British Army clothing ledgers after all.
The RHA/RM conundrum is more challenging. There were two distinct parts to the Royal Marines at that time, the Royal Marines Artillery who wore dark blue tunics, and the Royal Marines Light Infantry who wore scarlet tunics. To join the Royal Marines from the RHA it would have been necessary to be completely discharged from the Army and then reenlist via the administrative auspices of the Royal Navy, who were the authority over the marines. Conversely to move from the RHA to another part of the Army was carried out via a straight transfer all within the same service. There is obviously a story behind the situation you’ve outlined and access to his service records would reveal what took place.

[Home Guard]

Thanks Toby! I honestly don't know, only able to share what I was told. I have ten years worth of letters from men who flew with my father and I am sure in one of those letters I was told more, but what I have shared is all I can remember.

I will say that I always doubted the picture being RM due to the uniform, but of course never disputed it with Norm. That is how he remembers it so best he kept that memory. Norm and most other veterans from that era are now gone, and being a first year baby-boomer, I am starting to see my generation go as well. That's the hardest part of growing old!

Terry

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Home Guard

Thanks Toby! I honestly don't know, only able to share what I was told. I have ten years worth of letters from men who flew with my father and I am sure in one of those letters I was told more, but what I have shared is all I can remember.

I will say that I always doubted the picture being RM due to the uniform, but of course never disputed it with Norm. That is how he remembers it so best he kept that memory. Norm and most other veterans from that era are now gone, and being a first year baby-boomer, I am starting to see my generation go as well. That's the hardest part of growing old!

Terry

Understood Terry. If you can provide as much of his personal detail as you can (anywhere you might dig that up from?) such as his name and original home town (where he hailed from originally), I will post it in another forum where genealogical detectives gather and we’ll see what we can excavate from things like census returns, service record and pension records.

[Home Guard]

Hi Mark, Yes, I wish I did have that, but you have all I know as we really discussed my father and the missions and the unit in general, and he only mentioned his father in passing. i was able to get the picture from him and at he time wondered why he mentioned the RM. His name is Norm Doe, but he will be found most likely in the USAAF records, and then in the US army records as he went after flying B-25s in wWW2 to helicopters after the war and then for a Sheriff's Dept.

Here's a picture of my father in the pilot's seat of Peggy Lou, tail number 13.


Here's a picture of Norm Doe.


And this often published picture shows my father in Peggy Lou, tail number 13 with Norm Doe flying Pistol Packing Mama tail number 02. They were a lead element dropping frag bombs on anti-aircraft positions before the main force came in ot hit the target.


Terry