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  #1  
Old 02-05-11, 03:44 AM
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Default Westminster patch?

Could someone comment on this patch; is it a Westies patch, when was it used? Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 02-05-11, 06:54 AM
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Default Westminster Regiment

It could be a cut down formation sign worn by the Westminster Regiment when serving in 1944/45 as the Motor Battalion in 5 Can Armd Bde, 5 Can Armd Div (Green letters WESTMR.R. on a maroon rectangle). (C Edwards 107)
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  #3  
Old 02-05-11, 11:14 AM
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A bit of a mystery, this one. As Mike says, it appears to be a cut down formation patch, but when and how it was worn has not been established.
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  #4  
Old 02-05-11, 03:46 PM
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So originally it would have been a 3" x 2" div. patch with this green lettering?
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  #5  
Old 02-05-11, 04:54 PM
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It may have been. The lettering in 5 CAD was based on the brigade. The Westies were part of the armoured bde, which was the senior bde in the div and used green lettering. Green was the colour used to denote the senior bde in each division.
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  #6  
Old 02-05-11, 06:42 PM
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Default 5 CAD

Bill A: I never made the connection between colour of lettering and the Bde. But what is the justification for yellow letters (6th Hussars) and pale blue (Cape Breton Highlanders)? And red letters used by 8th New Brunswick Hussars in 5 Can Armd Bde?
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  #7  
Old 03-05-11, 04:36 PM
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Hi Mike, A bit more on the patching for 5 CAD. The Division was first formed as 1 Canadian Armoured Division in February of 1941, and then re-designated 5 Canadian Armoured Division on 5 June 1941. The formation underwent several changes in the order of battle until it was somewhat set in January of 1943. (There would be an infantry brigade added to the orbat in 1944, but the orbat set in 1943 was basically the standard order of battle for British armoured divisions of that date.)
This impacted the insignia. Prior to the reorganization, 5 CAD had been organized on the two armoured brigade model, with a support group. The GOC 5 CAD had decided on the "imposed" formation patch system, where the unit abbreviations were put on the maroon patch for the regiments (armoured and infantry) that were in the division at that time. 5 CAD was composed of the 1st Armoured Bde, (not to be confused with the 1 Canadian Army Tank Brigade, which was an independent armoured brigade), and 2nd Armoured Brigade. When the patching was decided, the "imposed" colour was based upon the brigade the unit was in, but some units were switched around, and with the major re-organization in January 1943, the division only had two brigades, the 5 Canadian Armoured Brigade (the re-designated 2 CAB), and the 11 Canadian Infantry Bde.
It was not practical to change the unit formation patch every time the regiment was shifted in the order of battle. The original units of 1 Armoured Brigade 5 CAD (the pre 1943 formation) were the PEI Light Horse, Lord Strathcona's, First Hussars, and Fort Garry Horse and their patches were all green on maroon. The units from this group that remained in 5 CAD continued to wear the same colour of imposed patch as initially issued. Likewise, the Cape Breton Highr's were in the Support Group, the third "brigade" in the pre-1943 orbat. This was in keeping with the sequence of brigade seniority colours, where the senior brigade colour was green, then red, and then blue.
Similarly, the early 2 Armoured Bde, was red on maroon, which is seen in the patches of 7th/11th Hussars, GGHG, 8 NBH, and BCD.
Finally, the corps and services of the unit of the division follows the colour set by CMHQ, which was yellow. (With the exception of the RCCS and RCE.)
I am not sure how the 6 Hussars fit in. They were originally an Armoured Car unit, then became a headquarters defence squadron. The yellow may be part of the standard colour, as the 6 Hussars may have been considered corps troops.
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Last edited by Bill A; 03-05-11 at 06:03 PM.
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  #8  
Old 03-05-11, 05:28 PM
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Default 5 CAD

Very many thanks - Outstanding detail which I'm sure is not readily available elsewhere. How great to have true experts around.
Mike
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  #9  
Old 03-05-11, 05:55 PM
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Thanks Mike, not an expert, just learning..
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  #10  
Old 16-06-11, 07:57 PM
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Complete and intact, what would a set of these patches be worth? I had a chap try to flog off a set to me for $150...
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  #11  
Old 16-06-11, 08:52 PM
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Depends on the material. Are they printed or embroidered?
The price, for a pair of embroidered signs is little high, but in the range. For printed right on or a bit below the value.
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  #12  
Old 20-06-11, 05:48 PM
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The material is felt, and the lettering is embroidered.
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  #13  
Old 20-06-11, 06:18 PM
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Felt or melton? It is in the top end, but in the ballpark. Condition?
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  #14  
Old 22-06-11, 09:19 PM
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It was probably melton...
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  #15  
Old 22-06-11, 09:38 PM
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Ok. Still the same price range.
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