East Lancashire Regt

[GeorgeC]

I assume that an original East Lancs bimetal should have a brazing hole behind the brass rose (?), but I've never yet seen one - not that my experience of them is huge. None of the several examples currently on ebay have a brazing hole. That includes one that I'd have thought was likely to be original for other reasons - especially if the seller's claim is to be believed that the piece comes from a pre-1945 collection put together by a named officer. Anyway, can anyone please confirm that the original should have a brazing hole?

Thanks,
GeorgeC

[Chrisr]

George,

My QVC has a sweat hole behind the rose, as does one of my KC East Lancs

Cheers
Chris

[jeanpit-frenchy]

here is the E lanc from my grand father collection, i hope is genuine....

but "NO" brazing hole........

for me it's a good one, but now....!!!!!

[Alan O]

I have a genuine one with WW2 provenance and it has no sweat hole.

Alan

[GeorgeC]

Many thanks Chris, Jeanpit and Alan. The replies from Jeanpit and Alan rather shake my rule of thumb - learned largely from Alan! - that where brass is laid over white metal, or vice versa, there should be a brazing hole if it's a period piece. (I'm assuming, of course, that Jeanpit's and Alan's pieces are genuine, but that seems to me to be a safe assumption - thanks for the pics, Jeanpit: very nice as always.)

So, I guess my question for Alan is: is my rule, or my interpretation of what I thought was your rule, too rigid? Were there perhaps some manufacturers pre-1945 who didn't need brazing holes? Or some particular bimetal badges?

Sorry if you've been over this before; I know it's been discussed in the Forum. Just trying to get clearer about it if possible.

GeorgeC

[Alan O]

George,

Sorry I don't have a rule on brasing holes as there are too many exceptions to it. I have 100 plus WW2 badges collected by my grandfather in the 1940s and I know that they are genuine. Some have sweat holes and some don't. Certainly the earlier the badge the more likely it is to have a sweat holes but some early examples don't have any and some q/c examples do. Unfortunately there were a number of badge makers who used differnt dies and had new ones made or carried on using old ones for quite a while and there are no diffinitive answers here.

I would add that I would not for example buy a pre 1920 Leinster or Munster badge without a sweat hole. They may have existed but the sheer volume of forgeries mean that I would err on the side of caution and look for one with a sweat hole.

Just to muddy the waters further my ELancs is the only one I have that has a w/m slider! That is exceptionally unusual and just goes to day that even the basic rules are broken! I hope that this has not put you off too much.

Alan

[jeanpit-frenchy]

from my grand father collection. i think that only 80% of items had brazing holes...

but when i buy a badge prefer with brazing holes...

strong contitution, brazing holes, a good strong slider with a good colloration of brazing, not flat and for me it is a very good start....after the best is to had the badge in fingers.....and feeling

and of course LUCK....

[Luke H]

George,

I've got four E.Lancs two with brazing holes which I class to be older due to the type of slider, depth of crown and general age. The two I have without braze holes are fine examples just later probably 40s at a rough rough guess but still absolutely fine (they're 'ard as nails nall)!

It's more than possible to get badges from the 30's or even possibly slightly earlier without braze holes. So if the rest of the badge looks and feels fine, with the provenence I'd be happy with it.

Cheers,

Luke

[GeorgeC]

Many thanks, everyone. Very helpful all round. I'm not at all surprised that there are so many qualifications or exceptions to the brazing hole 'rule', and I'm not in the least put off. In fact I agree with the comment made by someone in another thread that the complexity of trying to tell originals from copies is part of the fun. Thank heavens for those repro men!

[iain]

on the subject of E.Lancs, could anyone please tell me if the 2nd V.B. ever came in a all brass, kings crown with s.africa scoll and loops version, seen a few white metal usually with slider ,just been bumping into one or two brass recently and was a bit tempted

[Viletone]

Originally Posted by iain

on the subject of E.Lancs, could anyone please tell me if the 2nd V.B. ever came in a all brass, kings crown with s.africa scoll and loops version, seen a few white metal usually with slider ,just been bumping into one or two brass recently and was a bit tempted

No is the answer, always w/m with a brass or copper rose. Sliders on VB badges have been commented on elsewhere and while they do exist in considerable numbers they are always of a style completely different to those found on regular badges. As a rule they are very long, often cut down and more often and not have a crimp line across the top. If you see any VB badge with the short stubby slider it's a copy. However the East Lancs VB's with lugs have also been copied to death and although I don't have one the thing to look out for is the lugs placement which is either too high or too low, (I can't remember which) rather than be across the centre of the badge.

[iain]

thank's for that,i was just looking at the 'net and came across one advertised as a territorial badge. iain

[dubaiguy]

Hopefully I have attached images of three East Lancs badges from my collection. The militia badge with the metals reversed I hope shows the braze hole behind the rose (with a little bit of braze still evident).

The others are an aa badge and a KC badge. The KC badge (with the unremoved 14 quid price tag - dear oh dear should have seen that) does not have a braze hole and I'm also concerned that it may be a fake. The headdress of the sphinx has vertical folds as oppossed to horizontal folds which I can't find represented in any of the books I have. Though I do note that another member has a similar badge in his album.

I'd be grateful for any thoughts on the KC.

Thanks
Mark

[Alan O]

Mark,

No brasing hole makes it WW2 rather than WW1 but the slider looks like an orginal rather than a modern copy.

Alan

[iain]

viletone, you made a referance to the loops position, i have spoted some now that you've mentioned it where the loops are not at the edges of the sphinx's tablet but lower on the e.lancs scroll, so i take it this is what you meant. iain