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  #16  
Old 01-06-19, 12:21 PM
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hi Henk
what a lot of work you have done. im sure there will be several more knowledgeable on this site offer their advice but i just want to commend you.
well done and keep up the good work
bc
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  #17  
Old 01-06-19, 12:25 PM
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Thanks for the enthousiasm showed.

I am not sure what you saw too beside the one page I offered above. But indeed there is more when you start from https://hcvv.home.xs4all.nl/milweb/Australia/index.html.

I am not really publishing it because I assume there are too many errors in it.
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Last edited by Wmr-RHB; 01-06-19 at 01:43 PM.
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  #18  
Old 02-06-19, 01:25 AM
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hi henk
yeah i found the all the links. very well done.
enjoy strolling through it
cheers
bc
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  #19  
Old 02-06-19, 07:29 AM
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Festburg's Lineage book makes it easy to identify the re-numbering of regiments and changes of titles over the years. He was a real expert in this field and had free access to the army's files to write it. You need an actual copy in front of you to do serious researchand I doubt if Google could give you enough detail.
There are two intermediate periods in Australian military history that are not well documented:
1. 1918-21 Period
Whatever regular army forces we had mainly wore rising sun badges but there were some unusual regiments on the army list: the 2nd Bn, 3rd Gippsland Pioneers had its own badge,and only one of these has ever been seen, shown in Cossum and also posted on the Forum a few years ago. Maybe there were badges for the other Pioneers?
The old Compulsory Training militia battalions were still going (95 Inf, 29 LH etc) until they faded away in the early 1920s when everyone lost interest after winning the war.
The new voluntary militia (61 Bns Inf, 26 LH etc) started mid 20s.
2. 1945- 48 Īnterim Army"
I have long wanted to know more about this period and have hardly any information on it. Again, mainly rising sums, but it was also the period of the early screen printed cloth shoulder flashes. The new militia started 1948.
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  #20  
Old 02-06-19, 10:01 AM
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Thanks @kingsley. Maybe I should really try to find a Festburg's.

Yes, both interim periods after the wars and before a new organisation was fixed, are a bit misty.

In any case, I am off for some holiday first and will not be able to attend the forums until 18th of July
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  #21  
Old 03-06-19, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wmr-RHB View Post
Sometimes I tear my hair out. This thread lead me to go through some of my pages and I had a Wikipedia page on the 5th Infantry, AIF beside it. Differences!!! I have the Victorian Scottish as being once the 51st, Wikipedia the 52nd. I do not know where I got my 51st from. Have to investigate again.
Hi Henk,

HQ and six companies of the Victorian Scottish Regiment formed the 52nd Infantry in its entirety effective 1 July 1912. HQ, MG Sec, and all the companies except 'F' Coy were drawn from South Melbourne, 'F' Coy from Port Melbourne.

By the beginning of 1915 it was the 52nd (Hobsons Bay) Infantry, with 'E' and 'F' Coys drawn equally from South and Port Melbourne, the rest of the regiment still drawn from South Melbourne.

On the change to 4-company organisation in 1915 the six companies formed 'A', 'B', and 'C', each drawn equally from South and Port Melbourne. HQ and MG Sec was still drawn from South Melbourne.

The 51st Infantry and the 52nd Infantry amalgamated on 1 October 1918 to form the 2nd Battalion, 5th Infantry Regiment, with the former 52nd Inf forming 'C' and 'D' Coys of the new battalion which was headquartered at Albert Park with 'A' and 'B' Coys. 'C' and 'D' Coys were still recruited from South and Port Melbourne.

2nd Battalion, 5th Infantry Regiment, was reorganized and redesignated the 5th Battalion on 31 March 1921, with the companies remaining unchanged except 'A' and 'B' also now recruited from Middle Park. Bn HQ and HQ Coy were now at South Melbourne, having absorbed RHQ 29 Light Horse, and possibly 'A' and 'B' Tps of 'A' Sqn 29 LH which were recruited in the Melbourne metropolitan area - in fact these might have become the Middle Park elements of 'A' and 'B' Coys.

The new 5th Battalion was also supposed to have absorbed portions of the 2nd Battalions of the 46th Infantry and the 60th Infantry Regiments but I regard this as a non-event because those units were drawn from totally different areas of Melbourne.

Now, Festberg states the Victorian Scottish Regiment was divided into the 51st and 52nd Inf on 1 July 1912, quoting MO 277/1912 of 28 May 1912, Reorganization of the Militia Forces from the 1st of July 1912. On the contrary this order states that the 51st Inf was to be formed from two coys of the 1st Bn, 5th Aust Inf Regt, and two coys of the Victorian Rifles.

This is also confirmed in Commonwealth of Australia Gazette, Issue No 51, dated 3 August 1912, Alteration in Designation and Formation of New Units.

One way to put the matter to rest completely would be to examine the pay and muster lists of the Defence Forces in Victoria that are digitized on the National Archives of Australia website, noting the names of the members of the VSR in the year ending 30 June 1912, and comparing them against the names appearing in the nominal rolls of the 51st and 52nd Inf for the training year ending 30 June 1913 to see what matches.

I do that sort of thing to confirm artillery unit lineages but have too much on to follow that up for infantry at the moment.

Cheers,
Keith
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  #22  
Old 03-06-19, 07:35 AM
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In fact just to further that, I compared the Officers' List of the Australian Military Forces 1912 with the Officers' List of the Australian Military Forces 1914, and it shows me that the officers of the VSR formed the 52nd Infantry, and the Victorian Rifles formed the 51st Infantry. The 1914 List also show 'G' Coy at South Melbourne and 'H' Coy at Port Melbourne for the 52nd Infantry as at 1 August 1914, but they were not being maintained at 1 January 1915 according to Distribution of the Militia Forces 1914-15.

Keith

Last edited by fairlie63; 03-06-19 at 07:41 AM.
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  #23  
Old 18-06-19, 01:56 PM
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Hello fairlie63,

I am glad I have announced that I would not be available until the 18th of June, because otherwise it would have been very impolite not to answer to your very extensive posts.

The effort you took to forward the information to me is much appreciated indeed.

I will try to update my web page as good as possible (I am afraid that going down to the Company level will be too much).

Cheers,
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  #24  
Old 18-06-19, 03:34 PM
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As I understand it from your explanation, the 52nd came from the Victoria Scottish Regiment and the 51st from the Victorian Rifles. I have updated 1st Bn, Victoria Regiment.

The thing is that I have no information about those Victorian Rifles. They are completely new to me . Thus the 1898 as raising year is fiction.
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  #25  
Old 18-06-19, 07:39 PM
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I'll have a look at Vic Rifles for you Henk.

I think it should be 1st Battalion, Royal Victoria Regiment for the heading of your chart.

Also in October 1942 32 Aust Inf Bn became 109 Aust LAA Regt. Only the title and a few men of 32 Bn went to 14/32 Bn. Western Australian members of the bn went to other units of 4 Aust Div.

Last edited by fairlie63; 19-06-19 at 09:58 AM. Reason: additional information
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  #26  
Old 19-06-19, 09:56 AM
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The Victorian Rifles, raised as two companies in Melbourne vide Commonwealth of Australia Gazette Issue No 274 dated 10 November 1906.

Keith
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  #27  
Old 19-06-19, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fairlie63 View Post
I think it should be 1st Battalion, Royal Victoria Regiment for the heading of your chart.
You miss the word "Royal" here I assume.

I was not sure about what to do here. The regiment was not Royal when organized first, but made Royal the same year. When you click on "Victoria Regiment" at the bottom of the chart, you will land at the page of all the battalions of the "Royal Victoria Regiment" where both 1960 happenings are to be seen. So the cut between the two charts is at the point in 1960 between not Royal and Royal. But it is (very) arbitrary.
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  #28  
Old 19-06-19, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fairlie63 View Post
The Victorian Rifles, raised as two companies in Melbourne vide Commonwealth of Australia Gazette Issue No 274 dated 10 November 1906.

Keith
Added that info to the page.
1st Bn, Victoria Regiment
Thanks again.
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  #29  
Old 19-06-19, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
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Also in October 1942 32 Aust Inf Bn became 109 Aust LAA Regt. Only the title and a few men of 32 Bn went to 14/32 Bn. Western Australian members of the bn went to other units of 4 Aust Div.
Also useful to know.

There is always the two: the official lineage at one side and the "where did all the people go that still indentify themselves with the regiment".

The form I choose for my charts is for helping people in following the regiments through history and trying to show changes in relation to those of other units. This as an aid for those who study units. This to help creating a overview when reading dry textual information.
But the format has it's limitations and in war time so many units where split, merged, changed to other arms, etc. that it is impossible to fit all that in a chart like this

It is all about compromises and choices to be made what can be added and what not.

But every gap filled is a step forward
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