Royal Engineers Side cap Badge

[tonyb]

Hello all ,
I am trying to confirm the cap badge worn in the Royal Engineers Side Cap for ORs.
Is it the standard laurel wreath type c/w Royal cypher or the 9 flamed collar grenade badge.
[I am aware Officers wore the Bullion Grenade]
Regards Tony.

[badjez]

Tony,
I presume you are referring to the 1939-45 period. If so I cannot recall any ACI's authorising the RE other ranks to adopt the grenade as a badge in the FS cap, GS cap or beret. The wearing of the grenade by the RA was sanctioned.

The standard RE badge with wreath should have been worn, but I am sure some Sappers bent the rules!

Stephen.

[Charlie585]

Hi gents,

I have a RE side cap which was gifted to me by a Bruneval Raid veteran.

It is blue with yellow piping, apparently it was issued as a walking out cap to mark the participation in a battle, which one he can't remember as he saw a LOT of action.

The cap has evidence of two different badges and the gent when questioned said that they were told to take one type of badge out and replace it, so I would guess this confirms that a standard RE laurel badge was the order of the day.

I have mounted a JR Gaunt one piece badge with blades on the cap, but that's just a personal prefference as they compliment each other in looks.

The soldier in question started the war as a 16 year old in the Buffs 2nd Bn and was evacuated from Dunkirk before transfering to the RE and volounteering for the airborne. He went on to do a full career with the REs ending up as an RSM but never switched to a QC badge even when picked up on it and still has his KC badge along with his many medals.

[engr9266]

As far as I know the RE side hat had RED piping and not yellow. OR's would have worn the standard khaki side hat with BD's and the Blue with Red piping in full dress but like some clothing this item may have been brought privately similar to the stable belt. This would have the standard issue cap badge with Laural leaves and both worn with the bi metal issue of 1949-1952.

[Charlie585]

Originally Posted by engr9266

As far as I know the RE side hat had RED piping and not yellow. OR's would have worn the standard khaki side hat with BD's and the Blue with Red piping in full dress but like some clothing this item may have been brought privately similar to the stable belt. This would have the standard issue cap badge with Laural leaves and both worn with the bi metal issue of 1949-1952.

Yes jerry thats exactly what I thought but this particular hat was an award, a kind of unnoficial battle honour for the particular Airborne sub unit that took part in a particular action.
I can assure you that this man is the real deal and although his memory may fail him on a few of the specifics he's as sharp today as he was when he was an Airborne Royal Engineer RSM, who am I to argue mate?

More photos coming up
Ry

[Charlie585]

I don't have one with the red piping yet, but I do have this. Sorry if they're not very clear.
Ry

[tonyb]

Saw this on a site mentioned in another thread ,this prompted the question .
Regards Tony.

[Charlie585]

Hi Tony,
I think I'm familiar with this particular cap (may have had it im my hands twice) and didn't buy because of the doubt, but that said there is every possibility that it is as was worn by the original wearer, he could have been bending the rules, or a previous collector could have mounted the badge. Who's to know. If it had a provenance then the price is very good, without I would expect to pay upto a third less than what is being asked.
Regards
Ry

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by Charlie585

Yes jerry thats exactly what I thought but this particular hat was an award, a kind of unnoficial battle honour for the particular Airborne sub unit that took part in a particular action.
I can assure you that this man is the real deal and although his memory may fail him on a few of the specifics he's as sharp today as he was when he was an Airborne Royal Engineer RSM, who am I to argue mate?

More photos coming up
Ry

Bit odd this - if he were airborne then he would have worn a maroon beret and nothing else.

[Charlie585]

Yes Alan,

Idefinitely see your point there, after qualifying as Airborne why on earth would you wear anything else?

That as well as this cap not being RE colours. These were my first thoughts.

In my opinion I don't think that the gent in question thought much of the cap either, hence it now being in my possesion, or maybe it holds sad memories!

Ultimately it may warrant an enquiry to the RE museum who may be able to shed some light on it, though the section of the museum dedicated to RE Airborne is limited in its size, due to the fact that I would assume that the Airborne have their own museum.

This old gent I am confident is the real deal, it would make me very sad if that were not the case and I will continue to take him at his word and give him the benefit of any doubt untill such time as it is confirmed otherwise.

I have a feeling he is genuine!

He has shown me photos of himself at various points in his career from the Buffs onward, and it is definately him in the photos.
He has in his posession A comemorative magazine/brochure type publication which was released for the 50th anniversary of the formation of the Airborne which others are sure to have somewhere.

In this publication there is a picture of some of the members who took part in the raid actually on the aircraft inbound for the mission and he is among them.

I won't divulge his name publicly but if anyone has access to names of the RE party on the raid and can put forward a list I would be able to confirm his prescence or otherwise.

He Remembers a Fellow RE on the Raid by the name of Reg Orton who is mentioned in detail in the book about 9 Para Sqn RE "The 9th" By Tom Purves.

Part of this write up mentions an episode where a party of RE Airborne were behind the lines on a mission to carry out a demolition of a railway. The mines exploded prematurely and members of the party were sadly killed.

The man in question here told me this story before he knew of the existence of the book, which I have since purchased again on his behalf.

A further thought on the original posting, this cap could have been owned by an officer, given the bomb type badge and who's to know if they were actually worn. we may never know for sure but I will make further enquiries as time permits on this one.

I hope this is of relevant interest and helps?

Regards
Ry

[54Bty]

The coloured field service cap in post number 3 may be from the Buffs (unable to find my little book at the moment). Check to see if there is an outline of the Buffs badge under the RE one.

[Charlie585]

That would certainly make sense, but our friend only did 6 months with the buffs and is sure that the cap was awarded whilst in the RE Airborne during world war 2.

Must bear in mind that he is now an old man, wide awake and with it, but memory for details?
Ry

[MadJack]

Originally Posted by engr9266

As far as I know the RE side hat had RED piping and not yellow. OR's would have worn the standard khaki side hat with BD's and the Blue with Red piping in full dress but like some clothing this item may have been brought privately similar to the stable belt. This would have the standard issue cap badge with Laural leaves and both worn with the bi metal issue of 1949-1952.

The RE side cap has yellow piping. The officers cap badge was a bulllion flaming grenade. As it was a private purchase it is likely that either badge was used by OR's depending on unit preferences - the RA certainly used the grenade instead of a cap badge. As you were given it be the owner is it questionable?

[Luc]

Here's mine, identical to Tony's example apart fom the red badge backing.

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Bit odd this - if he were airborne then he would have worn a maroon beret and nothing else.

The Bruneval raid took place before the introduction of the maroon beret.

Would a RSM have worn an officers cap badge?

Rgds,

Thomas.