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  #16  
Old 24-08-14, 08:06 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLynch View Post
The 1st Reinforcements badge

Is there any evidence, that this badge was worn out side in the field, or on the ships, transporting the troops to Sling camp? Photos would be great!
The 1st NZ Reinforcements did not wear reinforcement badges; photographic evidence shows them either wearing Territorial badges of the units they were attached to, or no badges being worn at all.
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  #17  
Old 05-09-14, 11:52 PM
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Default Rquest photos of soldiers wearing Reinforcements badges

Hi, can anyone sent me images of soldiers wearing the reinforcement badges.

I need proof that these reinforcement badges were worn!

I will give acknowledge in my book for any photos I use.
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  #18  
Old 06-09-14, 02:48 AM
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Hi John,
During the First World War the Auckland Weekly News would publish pages of pictures of New Zealanders killed and wounded, a lot of whom are shown to be wearing Reinforcement badges.
Try libraries, maybe online, for copies of these "Auckland Weeklies".
Cheers, Tinto
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  #19  
Old 06-09-14, 06:02 PM
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Hi John,
Here is a photo of my granduncle in the 19th Reinforcements. You are welcome to use it if you wish.
Cheers, Tinto
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File Type: jpg LCpl.jpg (37.8 KB, 44 views)
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  #20  
Old 06-09-14, 09:47 PM
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Frank-Leslie-Newell.
Here is a photo of my Great uncle with his 29th Reinforcement Cap badge c1917.
This was the photo that was printed in The Herald 1918, plus the original.
Originally posted to 29th, two months latter was transferred to H Coy 28th reinforcements, sadly killed in France, 2nd May 1918.

Corey
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  #21  
Old 15-09-14, 12:27 PM
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The New Zealand badge books by Dave Corbett and Geoff Lowe divide NZ Reinforcement badges into two categories, those that were worn by the individual soldiers themselves, and those that were given by the soldiers to their sweethearts, wives and mothers.
Puk’s discovery in November 2009 opened a third category, his photograph of Trooper Robert Scott who embarked with the 6th reinforcements, provided the first solid evidence that early Reinforcement badges were purposely made for display by museums and the collectors market by using badge frames that had not been worn until much later reinforcement drafts.

Curious as to just how popular badge collecting was during WW1, I started collecting every bit of information I could find on early NZ badge collections, and eventually started the following thread which is still a work in progress.

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=27360

November 2009 may have been the awakening, but December 2009 was a very happy Christmas, as this was when I came up with the idea of asking a bunch of collectors to share what they had regarding NZ Reinforcement badges.

The response was fantastic and way more than I had hoped for, and on the 2nd January 2010, I started the “New Zealand Rifle Brigade Badges and Insignia Database” on the MilitariaNZ forum.

http://militarianz.freeforums.org/ne...ase-t1797.html

Four weeks later on the 31st January 2010, I started the “New Zealand Mounted Rifle Reinforcement Badge Database.”

http://militarianz.freeforums.org/ne...837.html#p9325

For those who are not fortunate to have Geoff Oldham’s 2nd edition of ‘Badges and Insignia of the New Zealand,’ which is an illustrated price guide published in 2011, the following picture is taken from the top of page 35.




As can be seen, Geoff has pictured the ‘1st Pattern’ Triple Fern badge 4/5 (worn by 6th 7th and the 8th Reinforcements), and the ‘3rd Pattern’ 1st, 2nd and 3rd Reinforcements Triple Fern badges 4/1, 4/3 and 4/4 (made for museums and the collectors market)

Geoff has also pictured the rare ‘4th Pattern’ Triple Fern badge 4/2, and interestingly, except for the ‘1’ and ‘Reinforcements,’ it appears to have to be identical to the other 3 triple fern patterns.
These ‘4th Pattern’ Triple Fern badges are said to be available in both brass and silver, and with or without “NZ” lettering.

The following 2nd Reinforcements ‘4th Pattern’ Triple Fern badge picture is from the renowned collection of Craig Hooper.



As to which category the ‘4th Pattern’ Triple Fern badge fits into, I can only speculate, possibly they are patriotic/sweetheart, maybe they were worn by returned veterans, but for some reason I am leaning towards them being made for the collectors market.

What I can be 100% sure of is that the ‘4th Pattern’ Triple Ferns or any other reinforcement badges were not worn by the 1st or 2nd Reinforcements.
To add weight to that theory is the following document, dated the 28th November 1914, it was sent to the NZ Defence HQ in Wellington, and is signed by Captain Charles Eric Andrews NZSC, on behalf of Lieutenant-Colonel Edmund Robert Bowler, who was the Commanding Officer of the 2nd Reinforcements.



The document itself is pretty much a complaint by the Commanding Officer of the 2nd Reinforcements, about the lack of badges available for the 2nd Reinforcements two weeks prior to their embarkation on the 14th December 1914.

At the bottom of the document dated 3rd December 1914, is a note from Major General Alfred William Robin, who was NZ Quartermaster-General from December 1910, to the 5th May 1919, he was also Commandant of the NZ Military Forces from 10th September 1914, to the 10th December 1919.


Last edited by atillathenunns; 30-07-17 at 05:21 AM.
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  #22  
Old 16-09-14, 12:33 AM
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From my reckoning the 2 varieties of ''Triple fern'' pattern badges worn by soldiers of the NZEF in WW1 ,were the scrolled variety(Oldhams 4/5) and the scrolless variety (unrecorded) .Both varieties unnumbered

Here are 2 original photo's in my collection with the corresponding badges from a well known collection
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Triple ferns 001_crop_crop.jpg (85.5 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg Tiple ferns scrolled 065.,.._crop_crop_crop.jpg (15.5 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg triples ferns 001_crop.jpg (71.1 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg WW1 triple 067_crop.jpg (28.2 KB, 10 views)

Last edited by pukman; 17-10-14 at 06:44 PM.
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  #23  
Old 26-10-14, 06:13 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pukman View Post
From my reckoning the 2 varieties of ''Triple fern'' pattern badges worn by soldiers of the NZEF in WW1 ,were the scrolled variety(Oldhams 4/5) and the scrolless variety (unrecorded) .Both varieties unnumbered
Puk your reckoning regarding the first 2 varieties of ''Triple fern'' pattern badges is spot on.
IMO, Geoff Oldham’s brief description of the ''Triple Fern Pattern” and his omission of the ‘2nd Pattern’ Triple Fern badge, needs to be greatly improved for incorporation into his next revised edition, which is rumoured to be coming out with colour pictures.

On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being the rarest of reinforcement badges, the ‘1st & 2nd Pattern Triple Fern badges’ would have to rate at least a “2.”
The following 1st Pattern Triple Fern badge is from the Tinto collection.


In comparison, the ‘3rd Pattern Triple Fern badges’ which typically number 1, 2 and 3, would rate a “5” on my personal 1 to 10 scale.



The above set of 3rd Pattern Triple Ferns has only recently come together, and interestingly enough belongs to fellow Wellington Collectors Club member Kapitidave, who you might remember was the one who pushed Trade-me bidder Torwood to achieve the record price paid for a 3rd Pattern Triple Fern badge, which is mentioned in this thread you started back in December 2012.

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ht=triple+fern

The following superb 3rd Pattern Triple Fern picture was used in the above thread and from the renowned collection of Craig Hooper.
Note the size difference of the NZ regulation shoulder numerals 1, 2 and 3, compared to the numerals that are sweated on to the Triple Fern badges.



The following 3rd Pattern Triple Fern picture was also used in the above thread and is from the collection of fellow forum member James (aka – stevjp)



The following set of 3rd Pattern Triple Fern badges belonged to fellow forum member, the late Shaun Aumua.


Last edited by atillathenunns; 30-07-17 at 06:25 AM.
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  #24  
Old 26-10-14, 07:11 PM
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A photo from one of the premier NZ badge collections in the country ,Laurie Osborne A.K.A ''Trivet'' . I had the good fortune to see this collection .
Attached Images
File Type: jpg christchurch 067_crop.jpg (36.8 KB, 52 views)

Last edited by pukman; 27-10-14 at 03:49 AM.
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  #25  
Old 27-10-14, 02:40 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pukman View Post
A photo from one of the premier NZ badge collections in the country ,Laurie Osborne A.K.A ''Trivet'' ,who I had the good fortune to see this collection .
As I recall correctly, the two holes just above the A/3 and B/3 badges used to be occupied by a 2nd Pattern Triple Fern badge, it seems he must have sold one of his 3rd Pattern Triple Fern badge (# 1) and moved the 2nd Pattern Triple Fern badge up to balance things out.

Interesting to note is apart from the numerals, it seems that Laurie’s 1st & 2nd Pattern Triple Fern badges would have been the only badges that would have been worn by NZ Reinforcements, all the rest of Laurie’s reinforcement badges that are pictured would have mostly been made for the collectors/museum market and a small minority would have possibly been worn as patriotic badges.

Last edited by atillathenunns; 27-10-14 at 02:47 AM.
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  #26  
Old 09-01-15, 01:53 AM
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Continuing on from Post #21, where I posted a letter from the Commanding Officer of the 2nd Reinforcements about the lack of badges (dated the 28th November 1914).
The next important piece of the puzzle is the letter of reply.

The following document is from the NZ Quartermaster-Generals office in Wellington, it is dated 8th December 1914, and is titled “Badges for Reinforcements, Expeditionary Forces.”

The document is addressed directly to Colonel H. R. Potter, the Camp Commandant of Trentham Reinforcement Camp, and is not only another nail in the coffin for reinforcement badges being worn by the 2nd Reinforcements, but more importantly, it outlines the understanding and stance that the NZ military authorities had decided to take, in regard to the supply of Regimental badges for all NZ reinforcements.



Note. — The document is signed by Major J. O'Sullivan, Assistant Quartermaster-General and Director of Equipment and Stores in Wellington, and is also notarised as being “Seen” by Major General Robin.
(Major O'Sullivan was appointed to the position of Defence Storekeeper in charge of the Wellington Defence Store’s Department after the death of the previous Defence Storekeeper Captain Sam Anderson had died on the 7th December 1899)

Last edited by atillathenunns; 30-07-17 at 05:40 AM.
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  #27  
Old 09-01-15, 04:50 AM
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Just out of interest, the normal process for the approval of new Regimental and Corps badge designs is that after being approved by the Officer Commanding their local District, the badge design then had to be submitted by the Commanding Officer of the Regiment to the Assistant Adjutant General for its final approval by the Commanding Officer of the NZ Forces, after which it would be registered with the NZ Quartermaster-Generals office.
(In 1911 General Alexander Godley was the Commanding Officer of the NZ Forces)

As an example of that process, and because I’m a big fan of the Wellington Regiments, the following document is the original 5th Wellington Regiment badge design sent to the CO of the Wellington District on the 23rd February 1911.
Note. — At this stage the 1st Wellington Battalion had not received their official designation “5th Wellington Regiment,” and that although the design was the same that had been used by the 1st Wellington Battalion since 1898, all Regimental badges new or old, had to be registered and submitted for approval under the then new Territorial system



The following document is the original 5th Wellington Regiment badge design sent to the Assistant Adjutant General for approval on the 19th June 1911. (The 5th Wellington badge design is the same as in the above document)



The last document shows the 5th Regiment Wellington Rifles badge design at is recorded in the NZ Quartermaster-Generals register.
Note. — that badge design has been approved in the right hand column by “AG” (Alexander Godley)


Last edited by atillathenunns; 30-07-17 at 05:51 AM.
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  #28  
Old 09-01-15, 07:23 AM
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The following documents are part of my ‘Onward / National badge research, but are worthy of a mention here.
Both letters are signed by General Alfred William Robin, and are in response to enquiries by the New Zealand Minister of Defence regarding the shortages of badges and brass buttons available to New Zealand Reinforcements within the reinforcement camps.
This first Letter is dated 26th February 1916.



The following letter is dated 2nd March 1916.



The Defence Minister at the time was Mr James Allen, and he made the following notation on the above letter on the 5th March 1916.



The way I read it, these letters confirm that in the eyes of the New Zealand Defence Department, the Reinforcement badges were not official, and that the Defence Departments supply of lettering and numbers on the shoulder straps was considered adequate enough to identify the wearer’s branch of service.
Although Reinforcement badges were not given official sanction, they were approved of by both General Robin and James Allen as a stop gap measure until the universal Expeditionary Force badge was first issued to the 34th Reinforcements.

Last edited by atillathenunns; 26-12-17 at 10:45 PM.
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  #29  
Old 19-01-15, 01:30 AM
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At the outbreak of WW1 most New Zealanders at the time predicted the war would be over by Christmas, unfortunately the Allies were unable to exploit any breakthrough after the German retreat at the Battle of the Marne in 1914, and the war on the western front became more of a positional war of attrition.

When the Second NZ Reinforcements arrived at Trentham Camp the 21st October 1914, it was nothing more than a large paddock, next to a racecourse and Railway siding with a rifle range and a few civilian residences close by. The only military additions were the row upon row of Indian Service pattern bell tents that had been erected to house the 2nd Reinforcements.

The following photo of Trentham Camp is dated November 1914, and is captioned as “showing Artillery, Mounted Rifles and Infantry, 2nd Reinforcements Engineers and Veterinary Corps in occupation.”



The following photo (Ref: 1/1-017536-G. Alexander Turnbull Library) of Trentham Camp is dated 1914 and is titled —“Airing the camp after rain, Trentham NZ”



As can be seen in the above picture, some of the biggest obstacles for the men of the 2nd Reinforcements were the general habitableness and sanitary conditions. Heavy rain which hit Trentham around the 24th of November 1914, combined with poor drainage, turned the grass/dirt walkways into mud. Another obstacle was the poor water supply which initially required heavy restrictions until local hill streams could be diverted into a purpose built reservoir to supply the camp.

The only camp comforts available to the 2nd Reinforcements was a Post/telegraph office, a barber's shop, a cordial hotel (better known as a dry canteen), billiard tables, a picture show, several churches (tented edifices), a Salvation Army, a Y.M.C.A., and a single shower/bathing block.

The following close ups are just a couple of examples to show that the majority of 2nd Reinforcements pictured in the above photo are not wearing any hat badges, adding yet another nail in the coffin for the wearing of Reinforcement badges by the 2nd Reinforcements.






Last edited by atillathenunns; 27-12-17 at 02:24 AM.
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  #30  
Old 19-01-15, 02:30 AM
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Hi Brent,

I wanted to write and thank you for starting this terrific thread and sharing this history and research. I only have a passing interest in NZ badges due to my general 'Commonwealth/Colonial' interest in badges but must say such great details like this is a wonderful way to inspire and certainly has such badges raised a little more on my radar.

Needless to say I can't add anything of use to this thread but will continue to read and enjoy the efforts by your good self and others - not to mention with a little luck be on the look out for a rare badge or two myself.

Many thanks and cheers, Roy.
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