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  #1  
Old 03-03-12, 09:57 AM
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Default British Section NZEF

I have been priveliged to have access to 1000's of portait photo's in period newspapers .

Here is another one that doesn't conform to the mainstream thinking.Corporal C.W Saunders has matching badges ,both cap and collar .,that are all approx 35mm in height which do not match the 45mm height of the cap badge which is supposedly the ""Oak Leaf'' British section cap badge that appears in Dave Corbetts book.The photo in Malcolm Lords and Cliff Lords book ,NZ Distuigiushing patches also seems to confirm this.I will, in the following months confirm this without any doubt.

I'm am once again putting my head on the chopping block.,,David Corbett's book is/was the bible of NZ badge collecting .HE did he get a few things wrong in retrospect. .Maybe this is another example.If you have anything to disprove or otherwise please add to the thread

Of the number of pictures i have seen of NZ British section soldiers the collar badge is the same size as on the slouch hat as well as the S/D forage cap.
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File Type: jpg OTAGO WITNESS VOLUME 1 024_crop.jpg (94.9 KB, 96 views)

Last edited by pukman; 04-03-12 at 12:40 AM.
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  #2  
Old 05-03-12, 06:22 AM
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Iain, this is all very interesting, I have two variations of NZ British Section cap badges, when I get time I will post some pics.

I am wondering if any forum members have the hard to find “laurel leaves” British Section collar badges, so we could get some size measurements????

I would also be very interested to hear Cliffs (Quicksilver) thoughts on the subject.

Dave Corbett wrote his books as a guide for us collectors, they have stood as the best NZ badge resources for the last 40 years, I think Dave would be proud that people are picking up on research that he started and taking it to the next level.

No pressure Puk old boy, but here is a picture of Dave (Middle row, 2nd from left) so you can look him in the eye as you type an amendment to his British Section chapter.



14 Fighter Squadron, photo dated the 27th of October 1944.
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  #3  
Old 05-03-12, 09:12 AM
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I never met David Corbett,but a friend of mine who did said he was a true gentleman and one who encouraged others to further research their field of collecting.

Here's another example of a British section soldier J D Mossman wearing the same smaller size badges on his collars and felt hat.The picture in the distinguishing patch book follows the same trend of soldiers wearing a same size collar and cap badge on the S/D forage cap.The photo in the book is a crop from a larger photo of British section which is in several period newspapers including the Auckland Weekly news and the Otago Witness.Most of the soldiers in the larger group photo appear to follow this trend.
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File Type: jpg J D Mossman_crop.jpg (99.2 KB, 82 views)
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  #4  
Old 06-03-12, 05:48 PM
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Of course those two previous examples of collar size badges worn on the caps by the NZ British section could be put down to an anomaly,but when you have about another 160 examples ,then its a trend,especially when according to Corbetts,and a nomimal roll found at archives there were 240 officers and men in the British section.
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File Type: jpg phpdnmIneAM.jpg (34.4 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg phpJyl8ehAM.jpg (33.3 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg Brit Section_crop.jpg (86.3 KB, 50 views)

Last edited by pukman; 06-03-12 at 05:59 PM.
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  #5  
Old 07-03-12, 10:51 AM
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Iain, I don’t think people realise just how important this discovery is.

On close inspection of my two British Section hat badges, they are pretty much identical, however, I did once own another variation of this badge which was noticeable in that it had a solid crown.

I have included the tunic buttons so it gives a better size perspective when compared to the photographs.



From the evidence presented so far, it would seem my British Section hat badges are not British Section hat badges.
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  #6  
Old 07-03-12, 11:06 AM
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Of special interest is the British Section puggaree. (khaki/red/khaki/red?)

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  #7  
Old 07-03-12, 04:57 PM
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Hi Iain and Brent,
A very interesting thread with great pictures, thanks.
A thought has occurrred to me that the badges worn in the photos just may be the "Expeditionary Force" badges. As you know, these came in varying sizes.
Unfortunately, it is not possible to see the detail in the photos.
What do you think?
Cheers, Tinto
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  #8  
Old 08-03-12, 01:55 AM
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Tinto, I’m afraid Iain’s neck is still safe so you can put your axe back in the shed.

Among the badges in my previous post I also included a NZ Expeditionary collar badge and an Onward collar badge.
I believe the photo of Sapper Astley does show enough detail around the bottom scroll area, and that his collar badge conforms more to the Onward collar badge than the NZ Expeditionary collar badge.

It is also worth considering that the “NZ Expeditionary Force badges” were typically worn post 33rd Reinforcements, and they were really just another reinforcement badge that was discarded in England.

IMO, I believe the previous photo of Sapper Eric Henry Astley was taken in London shortly after Astley enlisted with the British Section of the NZEF in October 1914. (Transferred to the New Zealand Engineers on the 28th December 1914)
Eric Astley died of wounds on Gallipoli on the 23rd June 1915, so the badges he is wearing could only be NZ Onward badges.
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Old 08-03-12, 02:28 AM
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Hi Brent,
You are most likely right in your reasoning.
The big mystery then, is what happened to all the lugged "ONWARD" collar badges (presumably with oakleaves, not fernleaves)?
Geoff Oldham illustrates smallish "ONWARD" collar badges (with oakleaves), possibly smaller than what Sapper Astley was wearing.
Cheers, Tinto

Last edited by Tinto; 08-03-12 at 02:38 AM. Reason: Addition
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  #10  
Old 08-03-12, 03:03 AM
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Hi Brent and Iain,
For the record, here is a solid crown British Section cap badge.
Cheers, Tinto
Attached Images
File Type: jpg BritSection.jpg (68.2 KB, 70 views)
File Type: jpg BritSectionrev.jpg (58.7 KB, 33 views)
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  #11  
Old 08-03-12, 03:06 AM
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Now all the ducks are starting to line up.If we take the assumption that the "Oakleaves "" British section hat badge was not worn by members of the British section,is it then possible that their collar badges were not of that design ?,rather just the standard fern leaves Onward collar.The Onward badges were used early in the war by soldiers in other units as illustrated by this photo of this Otago Mounted Rifles,Main body man,Edward Orchard 9/187,invalided home in early 1916(died in a car accident in 1917 in NZ).It is still possible that the Laurel leaves collar size badges were worn by the British section,and the cap badge size worn by of later individuals of other units?.

It would have been great to talk to David Corbett to discuss why he come to his conclusions and what was his reasoning behind why he thought the Laurel leaves cap and collar badges were worn by the NZ Brit Section.

I think your discovery of the khaki/red/khaki/red felt hat pugaree is a very important one too ,Brent.Perhaps Johnathan can do a nice colour illustration of this one.
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File Type: jpg phpBwsYkwAM.jpg (37.3 KB, 30 views)

Last edited by pukman; 08-03-12 at 07:57 PM.
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  #12  
Old 09-03-12, 04:19 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinto View Post
Hi Brent,
You are most likely right in your reasoning.
The big mystery then, is what happened to all the lugged "ONWARD" collar badges (presumably with oakleaves, not fernleaves)?
Geoff Oldham illustrates smallish "ONWARD" collar badges (with oakleaves), possibly smaller than what Sapper Astley was wearing.
Cheers, Tinto
Tinto, thankyou for posting the solid crown British Section cap badge.
At the moment until this badge mystery unravels a bit more, I can only speculate that it is this version of British Section cap badge which is a match to the collar badges (4/232) shown in Geoff’s new badge book, as they also have non voided crowns.

Whatever the case may be, the British Section did not wear the badge (4/230) that is shown in Geoffs book.

Also by any chance do you have badges 4/229?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pukman View Post
Now all the ducks are starting to line up.If we take the assumption that the "Oakleaves "" British section hat badge was not worn by members of the British section,is it then possible that their collar badges were not of that design ?,rather just the standard fern leaves Onward collar.The Onward badges were used early in the war by soldiers in other units as illustrated by this photo of this Otago Mounted Rifles,Main body man,Edward Orchard 9/187,invalided home in early 1916(died in a car accident in 1917 in NZ).It is still possible that the Laurel leaves collar size badges were worn by the British section,and the cap badge size worn by of later individuals of other units?.

It would have been great to talk to David Corbett to discuss why he come to his conclusions and what was his reasoning behind why he thought the Laurel leaves cap and collar badges were worn by the NZ Brit Section.

I think your discovery of the khaki/red/khaki/red felt hat pugaree is a very important one too ,Brent.Perhaps Johnathan can do a nice colour illustration of this one.
Iain, I agree with your logic that if the British Section NZEF did not wear the oak leaf onward cap badge, it is then very probable that they didn’t wear oak leaf collar badges.

But before you go kicking out the chairs from under Dave Corbett, Malcolm Thomas and Cliff Lords feet, as Tinto pointed out, I think we should sort out a noose for Geoff Oldham, as he seems to have got it wrong as well.

It is worth considering that Dave had some help putting his badge books together, and it may be very possible that someone else was responsible for the incorrect British Section badge information. Sadly we will never know.

Hopefully Cliff will offer his side of the story, and I am pretty sure we can get Geoff to offer up how he came to his conclusions if we ask him.

PS Fantastic picture of Trooper Orchard.
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  #13  
Old 09-03-12, 06:13 PM
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Brent ,its certainly not my intention to devalue any of these publications,rather i am simply just researching my field of collecting,which happens to be New Zealand militaria.

I have been told that David Corbett based his book and badge collection around that of of a world renown British badge collector,who happened to be a badge authority at the time.Perhaps this is where the mistakes come from.

I have had the Corbetts book since 1983,and its always been the badge bible to me.Lets hope someone in the future rewrites Corbetts script with ammendments,so that mistakes like this one do not get perpetuated ,and perpetuated so many times that they become fact,even though they are not.

Last edited by pukman; 09-03-12 at 10:01 PM.
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  #14  
Old 09-03-12, 08:51 PM
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Hi Brent and Iain,
Here are a couple of First World War "Onward" badges (4/229) alongside two 2NZEF badges of the Second World War for size comparisons.
The badge collector mentioned by Iain was probably Dan Atkinson who lived at Takanini, near Auckland. He had a truly marvellous collection and was the badge guru at the time of publication of Dave Corbett's books.
Cheers, Tinto
Attached Images
File Type: jpg WW1Onward.jpg (29.8 KB, 92 views)
File Type: jpg WW1Onwardrev.jpg (27.6 KB, 63 views)
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  #15  
Old 09-03-12, 10:40 PM
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Hello Tinto,

Thanks for that.

cheers Iain

Last edited by pukman; 10-03-12 at 03:26 AM.
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