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  #31  
Old 21-11-16, 07:54 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Until solid information or photographic evidence is found, the dating of NZEF NZAOC badges remains speculative at around mid 1917.

The following photograph taken in London just before the wars end is the earliest that I have seen so far, it shows a corporal wearing NZEF NZAOC hat, collar and shoulder title badges.

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  #32  
Old 22-11-16, 12:34 AM
RNeil RNeil is offline
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Brent, totally agree, although There is some written material collaborating the existence of the NZEF NZAOC from 1914-20, there is little photographic evidence of the badge been worn, one of the few I can find is from 1919 of the NZ Ordnance Staff at Mulheim, Germany in 1919 where the NZEF NZAOC badge (NZAOC 1924-37) (NZAOC 1940-44) can clearly be seen in use, by both officers and other ranks.

This contrasts with the situation at home where the NZAOD (officers) and NZAOC (other ranks) who wore different badges from 1917 until 1924, when the NZEF NZAOC badge was adopted.

New_Zealand_ordnance_staff_at_Mulheim,_Germany,_1919.jpg
nzef nzaoc badge.jpg
Sgt John Walker NZAOC which was taken in 1919 in Wellington, wearing the NZAOC 1917-24 badge.

walker.jpg

Last edited by RNeil; 23-11-16 at 04:10 AM.
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  #33  
Old 22-11-16, 08:42 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Rob the NZ Ordnance Staff at Mulheim picture and the John MacVean Walker picture are well known to me.
The Mulheim picture is especially interesting due to the badges worn by this chap.



In the Mulheim picture there are 13 NZAOC cap badges, 11 Artillery cap badges, 2 NZMC cap badges, 1 NZMGC cap badge, 6 various infantry Regiment cap badges, and oddly some British soldier has got himself into the picture.
The two officers on the left appear to be Main Body men from their service stripes, but most interesting to see the officers are wearing standard brass badges instead of bronze officer badges.
The Staff officer with the blue gorget collar patches interestingly is not wearing any service stripes.

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  #34  
Old 24-11-16, 12:13 AM
RNeil RNeil is offline
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Hi Brent,

During its wartime service the NZEF NZAOC was a very transient organisation with manpower being drawn from within the NZEF, some pers were permanently attached if the establishment would allow it, others would come in, some to allow recovery from an injury, others as a path to up-skill before being posted back to their original units in Quartermaster roles.

Additionally many craftsmen,(armourers, farriers, artificers and the like) were employed in Ordnance workshops but remained on the RNZA establishments and continued to wear the RNZA badge, this would not change until 1929 when they were all transferred to the NZAOC. So for a period craftsmen were found in bot the NZAOC and RNZA.

My hypothesis for the variation of cap badges in the Mulheim picture, is that, as this was during the demobilisation phase of the NZEF, is that the soldiers wearing other than NZAOC cap badges are quatermaster staff from the respective units that have been pooled and attached to the NZAOC to enable the Demob process.

Rob
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  #35  
Old 30-11-16, 07:18 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Rob, sorry for the slow reply just been real busy.

Iím guessing the Major in the Mulheim picture is Norman Joseph Levien whom I mentioned in post #28, sadly he is not wearing service stripes to confirm his long service, but how many Majors in the NZEF NZAOC in 1919 were there?
I still believe Major Levien would have been a key player behind the adoption of the NZEF Ordnance badges.

The following badges are from my own collection, the NZEF Ordnance collar badges took me a long time to find and by comparison the short lived Home Service NZAOC collar badges are much more common.
The few NZEF NZAOC collar badges that I have seen do not have the Gaunt tab and am curious if anyone has an example of a Gaunt made NZEF NZAOC collar badge they can share?

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  #36  
Old 30-11-16, 11:36 AM
woronora woronora is offline
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Hi Brent

Images of a pair of Gaunt made NZEF AOC collars I bought a while ago from Geoff Newman, UK.

I hope they help.

Cheers

John
Attached Images
File Type: jpg NZEF AOC 1.jpg (44.9 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg NZEF AOC 2.jpg (48.7 KB, 18 views)
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  #37  
Old 01-12-16, 02:58 AM
RNeil RNeil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
Iím guessing the Major in the Mulheim picture is Norman Joseph Levien whom I mentioned in post #28, sadly he is not wearing service stripes to confirm his long service, but how many Majors in the NZEF NZAOC in 1919 were there?
I still believe Major Levien would have been a key player behind the adoption of the NZEF Ordnance badges.
Hi Brent,

Levien was at Sling Camp during 1919 so I believe that the Major in the Picture is Charles Gossage, who was the DADOS of the NZ Division at the time.

You are quite right on your assumption that Levien was a key Player in the adoption of badges. He was the NZEF (UK) Chief Ordnance Officer from about June 1916. As the COO he was responsible for the acquisition of all the stores for the NZEF, at the time almost everything was obtained thru the Imperial Ordnance system, except for Jackets, hats and badges which were obtained by tender.

I have found this picture of Lt Col A.H Herbert wearing he the NZEF AOC badge, the picture is dated 1915. He was appointed as the DADOS of the NZ Div from Jan 1916 to May 1917, so it is highly likely this picture as taken 1916/17.
Herbert.jpg
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  #38  
Old 01-12-16, 08:05 AM
woronora woronora is offline
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Hi Rob

With all the photographs appearing, especially your latest contribution, I feel very comfortable with my NZEF AOC badges being representative of WW1 badges, rather than the NZ AOC ones.

Cheers'

John
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  #39  
Old 01-12-16, 10:44 PM
RNeil RNeil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
The few NZEF NZAOC collar badges that I have seen do not have the Gaunt tab and am curious if anyone has an example of a Gaunt made NZEF NZAOC collar badge they can share?
Hi Brent,

I have a set, but only one of the Collar Badges is a Gaunt made one.

NZAOC BADGE.jpg
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  #40  
Old 05-12-16, 07:50 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woronora View Post
Hi Brent
Images of a pair of Gaunt made NZEF AOC collars I bought a while ago from Geoff Newman, UK.
I hope they help.
Cheers
John
Hi John, if everyone shares their pieces of the puzzle the quicker we get to see a more complete picture.
My NZEF NZAOC collar badges are British made as the lugs have feet where they are attach to the badge and the letters ďNZĒ have been sweated on.
My cap badge on the other hand is a one piece stamping and the lugs do not have feet suggesting it was most likely manufactured in New Zealand.
The question which needs to be solved is which order were these badges issued in?
The NZEF Ordnance documents in post #30 forced Gaunt to tender for NZ Government badge contracts, so it could possibly be that Gaunt may not have produced the first NZEF NZAOC badges



Quote:
Originally Posted by RNeil View Post
Hi Brent,
Levien was at Sling Camp during 1919 so I believe that the Major in the Picture is Charles Gossage, who was the DADOS of the NZ Division at the time.
You are quite right on your assumption that Levien was a key Player in the adoption of badges. He was the NZEF (UK) Chief Ordnance Officer from about June 1916. As the COO he was responsible for the acquisition of all the stores for the NZEF, at the time almost everything was obtained thru the Imperial Ordnance system, except for Jackets, hats and badges which were obtained by tender.
I have found this picture of Lt Col A.H Herbert wearing he the NZEF AOC badge, the picture is dated 1915. He was appointed as the DADOS of the NZ Div from Jan 1916 to May 1917, so it is highly likely this picture as taken 1916/17.
Attachment 160505
Hi Rob, I wasnít aware of Gossage but good to identify him.
The picture of Lt Col A.H Herbert is incorrectly dated and although I have previously researched Herbert I donít recall seeing his picture before.
I am thinking if that is a DSO above his left pocket the photo would have been taken after June 1917.
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  #41  
Old 05-12-16, 10:21 PM
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Tinto Tinto is offline
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Hi Brent and others,
Here are my earlier Ordnance badges to add to the mix.
Re Gaunt made NZEF NZAOC collar badges, note that I have an unmatched pair, one has a Gaunt mark.
Note the construction and lugs of the heavy bronze badge.
Cheers, Tinto
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P1150781.jpg (105.6 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg P1150782.jpg (99.6 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg P1150783.jpg (66.6 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg P1150786.jpg (94.3 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg P1150787.jpg (100.8 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg P1150784.jpg (90.4 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg P1150785.jpg (96.5 KB, 15 views)
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  #42  
Old 06-12-16, 07:07 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinto View Post
Hi Brent and others,
Here are my earlier Ordnance badges to add to the mix.
Re Gaunt made NZEF NZAOC collar badges, note that I have an unmatched pair, one has a Gaunt mark.
Note the construction and lugs of the heavy bronze badge.
Cheers, Tinto
John superb set of cap badge variations, the unusual lugs on the cast badge is consistent with other NZ badges that I have seen, when I get time I will look thru my photo files and see if I can find some similar lugged badges.

The cap badge at bottom left looks like a match to my collar badges, can you confirm the NZ is sweated on?

I seem to recall seeing a couple of NZAOC cap badges that were cast lead.

What I am hoping to see is if anyone has a collar badge that the NZ and shield are a one piece stamping and not sweated on?
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  #43  
Old 06-12-16, 07:56 AM
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Tinto Tinto is offline
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Hello Brent,
Yes, the cap badge bottom left (below the cast badge) does have the NZ sweated on.
I find it hard to confirm that the NZ on the collar badges are sweated on though. They look to be one piece to me.
Regards, John

PS Correction. After zooming in on the collar badges, I realise that the NZ is indeed sweated on in both examples. Sorry.

Last edited by Tinto; 06-12-16 at 08:00 AM. Reason: Correction
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  #44  
Old 06-12-16, 08:01 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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  #45  
Old 06-12-16, 08:23 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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John I'm starting to see a pattern - the NZ when viewed from the back if solid it seems to be sweated on, whereas one piece die stamped badges show signs of the stamping on the back of the NZ.

The following are badges that were sold by Dave Oldham a while back.


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