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  #16  
Old 03-11-16, 07:50 PM
woronora woronora is offline
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Hi Rob

Many thanks for the great information you have supplied in regard to the NZ Ordnance badge patterns. I collect NZEF WW1 and have a set of the first pattern Ordnance badges with Gaunt tabs. I wish to be as authentic as possible with my collection and included the badge with NZ above the shield based on an earlier post that suggested the badges with NZ within the shield were reinforcement badges.

I have already framed my badges and unfortunately don't have space for both types of badges. I would welcome your opinion as to which pattern would be the better to display as being representative of the type worn by the Ordnance Corps during WW1.

Cheers

John
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  #17  
Old 03-11-16, 07:51 PM
woronora woronora is offline
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Hi Rob

Many thanks for the great information you have supplied in regard to the NZ Ordnance badge patterns. I collect NZEF WW1 and have a set of the first pattern Ordnance badges with Gaunt tabs. I wish to be as authentic as possible with my collection and included the badge with NZ above the shield based on an earlier post that suggested the badges with NZ within the shield were reinforcement badges.

I have already framed my badges and unfortunately don't have space for both types of badges. I would welcome your opinion as to which pattern would be the better to display as being representative of the type worn by the Ordnance Corps during WW1.

Cheers

John
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  #18  
Old 05-11-16, 11:36 PM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Hi RNeil, it is good to hear you are currently writing a history of the Royal New Zealand Army Ordnance Corps and it predecessors from 1840 to 1996, they played an essential part in our military history and have not received the credit they deserve.

As a student and collector of pre 1954 NZ military headdress, it is important for me to understand supply, distribution and disposal of military clothing/badges during and post WW1. As such I have collected quite a bit of information, but as with any research there are always many gaps, such as there is with the dates of authorisation and introduction of NZ Ordnance badges.

In the past I have lumped NZ Pay Corps and NZAOD and NZAOC (Home Service) badges and buttons as nothing more than reinforcement badges that were worn by civilians that were given military uniforms. Perhaps it is time to re-evaluate who the Home Service really was.

My suggestion is that we both share our knowledge on the evolution of the NZAOC by starting with the dates and appointments of NZAOD and NZAOC (Home Service) personnel and NZAOD and NZAOC (Active Service) personel from 1914 to 1923 that we do know.
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  #19  
Old 06-11-16, 02:19 AM
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fairlie63 fairlie63 is offline
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Just in regard to the differences between the Ordnance Department, and the Ordnance Corps in Australia -

In the period after Federation (1901) until 1942 the AAOD was a civilian staffed branch of the Public Service, and the AAOC was the military component. It was apparently not a happy arrangement, particularly as the former was heavily unionised.

It may not however have worked that way in the AOD/AOC and NZAOD/NZAOC although we usually followed UK practices as well.
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  #20  
Old 06-11-16, 02:59 AM
RNeil RNeil is offline
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John, That is a tough one as from 1917 both badges were probably worn concurrently, but on different side of the planet.

It is hard to date when the badge for the NZAOC (NZEF) was introduced, but I would assume it was some time in 1916 after the bulk of the NZEF moved from Egypt to Europe.

The records are clearer on when the NZAOD and NZAOC were formed in NZ, but there is no indication as to when the badges were introduced.

For display purposes, for now I would go with the badges worn in NZ (the NZAOD and NZAOC ones with the NZ between the cannonballs).
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  #21  
Old 06-11-16, 07:19 AM
woronora woronora is offline
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Hi Rob

Thank you for your reply to my query. Did the NZAOC who wore the badge with the NZ in the shield serve overseas as a Corps or was it a Home Guard group?

The benefit of this Forum is that it has shed an enormous amount of light on NZ badges, when and where they were worn, that was sorely lacking in Corbett and Oldham.

Cheers

John
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  #22  
Old 06-11-16, 08:23 AM
RNeil RNeil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woronora View Post
Hi Rob

Thank you for your reply to my query. Did the NZAOC who wore the badge with the NZ in the shield serve overseas as a Corps or was it a Home Guard group?

The benefit of this Forum is that it has shed an enormous amount of light on NZ badges, when and where they were worn, that was sorely lacking in Corbett and Oldham.

Cheers

John
The members of the NZAOC who wore the badge with the NZ in the shield, were uniformed soldiers who had previous service in either, the predecessor to the NZAOC, the New Zealand Defence Stores Department (DSD) or joined on their return from the NZEF.

Prior to the creation of the NZAOC and NZAOD, the Defence Stores Department was all civilians, apart from the Head Storekeeper in Wellington and district storekeepers in Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch and Dunedin, who had Honorary rank in the NZ Staff Corps. The Royal New Zealand Artillery had it own Ordnance structure of storekeepers and artificers who were uniformed.

When the NZAOC was formed in 1917 all the DSD staff became member's of the NZAOC and RNZA members in Ordnance roles also transferred from the artillery into the NZAOC. All the Senior staff became members of the NZAOD. During the remainder of the war some of the younger and fitter were released to join the NZEF, but it it not clear to what units.

The NZAOC (NZEF) from all the accounts I have read was recruited from within the NZEF and not from directly from New Zealand except for a few exceptions.
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  #23  
Old 08-11-16, 09:50 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Not all Defence Stores Department personnel were civilians, New Zealand has a long history of “Defence Stores Department” and “Head Storekeepers,” one such example is Major James O’Sullivan who served with the NZ Armed Constabulary before transferring to the Defence Stores Department in 1885 becoming Wellington’s Head Storekeeper in 1899. In January 1907 O’Sullivan was made Director of Ordnance Stores and given a Captains commission. In September 1911 O’Sullivan was promoted to Major, and in July 1914 was made an Assistant Quartermaster General. In April 1916 O’Sullivan was made Director of Ordnance Stores.

Although not quite Defence Stores personnel but to fill in the gap of 1911 to 1914, it is worth mentioning Lieutenant Colonel G. N. Johnston (Royal Artillery) who became Director of Ordnance and Inspector of Artillery in 1911.
Major J. S Maidlow (Royal Artillery) became Assistant Director of Ordnance and Instructor of Artillery, but left New Zealand to return to England in June 1914. (killed late 1914 serving with the RA)
Lieutenant Colonel G. N. Johnston embarked with the NZEF Main body HQ Staff.

However it is the ‘Deputy Assistant Director of Ordnance Services’ (DADOS) Captain William Thomas Beck who is also worthy of a mention.
Honorary Captain William Thomas Beck pre-war was a professional soldier in the NZ Staff Corps, and held the position as the Auckland District Storekeeper and was based at Mount Eden Defence Stores.
When the Auckland Contingent of the NZEF Main Body was assembled at Epsom Camp, Beck was appointed DADOS to the NZ Main Body attached to the NZ Headquarters Staff.
Captain Beck was promoted to full Captain in June 1915 and was metioned in Dispatches by Sir Ian Hamilton on the 6 August 1915. On the 8 November 1915 was Gazetted to be a companion of the DSO.
The following photo dated 1 October 1915, shows Captain W. T. Beck standing on the left at the ordnance depot in Shrapnel Gully, Gallipoli.




Photo of Captain Beck taken after his service at Gallipoli, he would be wearing blue Staff officers gorget collar patches , the hat badge appears to be a NZ Staff officers cap badge.

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  #24  
Old 08-11-16, 10:20 AM
RNeil RNeil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
Not all Defence Stores Department personnel were civilians, New Zealand has a long history of “Defence Stores Department” and “Head Storekeepers,” one such example is Major James O’Sullivan who served with the NZ Armed Constabulary before transferring to the Defence Stores Department in 1885 becoming Wellington’s Head Storekeeper in 1899. In January 1907 O’Sullivan was made Director of Ordnance Stores and given a Captains commission. In September 1911 O’Sullivan was promoted to Major, and in July 1914 was made an Assistant Quartermaster General. In April 1916 O’Sullivan was made Director of Ordnance Stores.

Although not quite Defence Stores personnel but to fill in the gap of 1911 to 1914, it is worth mentioning Lieutenant Colonel G. N. Johnston (Royal Artillery) who became Director of Ordnance and Inspector of Artillery in 1911.
Major J. S Maidlow (Royal Artillery) became Assistant Director of Ordnance and Instructor of Artillery, but left New Zealand to return to England in June 1914. (killed late 1914 serving with the RA)
Lieutenant Colonel G. N. Johnston embarked with the NZEF Main body HQ Staff.

However it is the ‘Deputy Assistant Director of Ordnance Services’ (DADOS) Captain William Thomas Beck who is also worthy of a mention.
Honorary Captain William Thomas Beck pre-war was a professional soldier in the NZ Staff Corps, and held the position as the Auckland District Storekeeper and was based at Mount Eden Defence Stores.
When the Auckland Contingent of the NZEF Main Body was assembled at Epsom Camp, Beck was appointed DADOS to the NZ Main Body attached to the NZ Headquarters Staff.
Captain Beck was promoted to full Captain in June 1915 and was metioned in Dispatches by Sir Ian Hamilton on the 6 August 1915. On the 8 November 1915 was Gazetted to be a companion of the DSO.
The following photo dated 1 October 1915, shows Captain W. T. Beck standing on the left at the ordnance depot in Shrapnel Gully, Gallipoli.




Photo of Captain Beck taken after his service at Gallipoli, he would be wearing blue Staff officers gorget collar patches , the hat badge appears to be a NZ Staff officers cap badge.

Captain Beck was also the first New Zealander ashore at Gallipoli.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willia...ilitary_career

Last edited by RNeil; 08-11-16 at 10:36 AM.
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  #25  
Old 09-11-16, 08:05 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RNeil View Post
Captain Beck was also the first New Zealander ashore at Gallipoli.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willia...ilitary_career
I do not agree with Glyn Harper’s comment that— “Billy Beck was the first New Zealander of Godley's force (there were New Zealanders serving in the Australian Division) to get on to Gallipoli”
Instead I would suggest that Lieutenant-Colonel Edmund Robert Bowler was the first New Zealand soldier to land on Gallipoli.
Lieutenant-Colonel Bowler’s appointment as one of four Beach Landing Officers (BLO), placed Bowler as responsible for the No. 1 section, the northern-most section of the beach, this would place Bowler on the beach at least two to four hours before Beck landed.

Wikipedia mentions that— “On 1 August Beck was transferred to duty in Alexandria never to return to Gallipoli”
It is worth mentioning that in 1915 the New Zealand Ordnance Department Depot, and the New Zealand Advanced Base Post Office shared a building at No. 12 Rue de la, Porte Rosette in Alexandria (Egypt).



The following picture shows a New Zealand army ordnance store in England, staffed by members of the NZFA ‘transferred from the artillery into the NZAOC.’


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  #26  
Old 09-11-16, 08:40 AM
RNeil RNeil is offline
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Great stuff, it was Chris Pugsley that originally identified Beck as the first Kiwi ashore, could be one of those wartime mystery's that need unravelling.

Interesting fact on the location of the Ordnance Department Depot, in Alexandria (Egypt) another clue in discovering the history behind the NZAOC.
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  #27  
Old 10-11-16, 09:16 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RNeil View Post
Great stuff, it was Chris Pugsley that originally identified Beck as the first Kiwi ashore, could be one of those wartime mystery's that need unravelling..
Hmmm, Beach Landing Officer versus Storekeeper, think I'll bet the family fortune on Beach Landing Officer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RNeil View Post
Interesting fact on the location of the Ordnance Department Depot, in Alexandria (Egypt) another clue in discovering the history behind the NZAOC.
The New Zealand Ordnance Department also had a store Shed (Number 43) at Alexandria Docks.

The New Zealand Ordnance Base depot in England was in Farringdon Street, London.
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  #28  
Old 12-11-16, 03:16 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Another two important NZEF Ordnance officers who served at Gallipoli worth mentioning are Brigadier Thomas Joseph King and Major Norman Joseph Levien, both of their Lieutenants commission in the NZ Army Ordnance Corps are dated 6 Oct 1915.

Brigadier King had a long military service but as far as the 1st NZEF goes he was struck off the NZEF strength when he was invalided back to New Zealand in March 1916, after which King was employed with the Ordnance Department (Home Service) in a “temporary” capacity prior to being appointed permanently on the 1st April 1917.

The following is a summary of Major Levien’s service with the NZEF.

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  #29  
Old 12-11-16, 09:39 AM
RNeil RNeil is offline
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Great Stuff,

Although NZ had no Ordnance Corp in 1914, the need for one had been recognised in 1913 and in plans made to establish Ordnance depots at each of the Territorial Force Annual camps, the first in 1913 and again in 1914.

These Ordnance Depots utilised standard scales for Camp Equipment, (I have a copy somewhere) and took a lot of the stores administrate tasks away from the individual battalions freeing them up for more Training time. Senior Staff were from the Defence Stores (Captain Beck was the Officer in charge of the Camp Ordnance for the Auckland Divisional Camp at Cambridge in April 1914) and all other staff were drawn from the Territorial Force and Trained in Ordnance functions.

So it is highly Likely that King and Levien were part of this pre war Ordnance Cadre, hence their selection for their wartime roles. I have a record that shows that as at the 12th of June 1914 the NZAOC had a strength of 14 OR's, which is strange for a corps that contemporary history has us believe did not exist until 1917.

As you mentioned King went on to be a Brigadier, He became the New Zealand Director of Ordnance Services (DOS) in 1924 and remained in that position until 1940. He was then the DADOS HQ 2 NZ Div and sailed with the 1st echelon. In 1942 he was appointed DDOS LofC for the 8th Army, and then was the DDOS 9th Army and was responsible for the military supply organisation and relief of the civil population during the liberation of Greece in 1944, quite an achievement for a Kiwi lad from Milton. her retied in 1947 and was Colonel Commandant of the RNZAOC for 12 years. he passed away in 1971.
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  #30  
Old 13-11-16, 02:54 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Rob, the understanding of the NZ Army Ordnance Corps prior to its official formation in June 1917, is IMO best described as a “temporary” formation as needed, whereas after June 1917 the NZAOC were a “permanent” corps of the NZ Military Forces.

From 1911 until 1917 each NZ Regiment was divided into Company’s or Squadrons (8 or 9 Company’s in an Infantry Regiment). As the camps evolved each Company would have its own Company Quartermaster-Sergeant and each Regiment/Corps would have a Regimental Quartermaster-Sergeant, and every District/Ordnance-Base would have a Quartermaster-Sergeant Major. (All would have been chosen “with due regard to their business ability and to their occupations when civilians”)
By 1918 the Company Quartermasters and Regimental Quartermasters were absorbed into the NZAOC.

In regards to Brigadier King and Major Levien they are both key players when it comes to understanding the manufacture and supply of badges to the New Zealand Forces.
Brigadier King certainly had a part to play in removing NZ badge maker P Robert as the NZ Governments preferred supplier and replacing them with British made badges in 1917.

Major Levien as can be seen in the service summary in post #28, places him in a position where he would have certainly been involved with supplying the NZEF NZAOC with their corps badges.
But more importantly it is a cost analysis of badge supply to the NZ Government by Major Levien in April 1917, which highlighted J. R. Gaunt as being “exorbitant” in price and contracts being offered to other badge suppliers.

The following is the cost analysis of badge supply to the NZ Government by Major Levien.



The following is the accompanying letter dated 25th April 1917 by Captain Norman Joseph Levien that was sent to Brigadier-General Richardson who was the Commandant of the NZEF in UK.



The following letter dated 30th April 1917 by Brigadier-General Richardson NZEF was sent to Headquarters in Wellington.

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