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  #1  
Old 15-10-11, 01:07 PM
jim a jim a is offline
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Default NZ ORDNANCE

I am thinking that this is a cap badge however I don't have a collar to compare it to. Measurements are 40mm H x 35mm widest part of the scroll... just looking for confirmation of cap or collar... thanks alot Jim
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  #2  
Old 15-10-11, 10:25 PM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Its is indeed a cap badge.
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  #3  
Old 15-10-11, 10:38 PM
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Default NZ Ordnance

Can anyone put a date on that for me pls? Early 1900s?

Cheers Al
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  #4  
Old 18-10-11, 09:41 PM
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In use from 1924 - 1947.
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  #5  
Old 21-10-11, 01:27 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
In use from 1924 - 1947.
Wow, I made a big mistake on that one and am a little surprised that no one spotted it.

The badge pictured above with the 'NZ' above the shield is believed to have been first adopted in late 1917 (NOT 1924) and worn in conjunction with smaller sized collar badges that have left and right facing guns.

Sorry for any confussion by my earlier comments.
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  #6  
Old 21-10-11, 03:22 AM
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As I am a rookie regarding New Zealand badges I didn't pick up on that but am very happy it could be WW1. Jim
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  #7  
Old 21-10-11, 12:23 PM
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Corbett has this badge as 1917-1937.

Rgds,
Thomas.
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  #8  
Old 22-10-11, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fougasse1940 View Post
Corbett has this badge as 1917-1937.

Rgds,
Thomas.
Corbett mentions approval was given on the 1st February 1917 for the NZ Army Ordnance Department and NZ Army Ordnance Corps to be established.
What Corbett dosn't mention is that the approval didn't take effect until the 1st April 1917 when the NZ Army Ordnance Directing Staff were appointed.
By June 1917 the NZ Army Ordnance Department and Corps comprised of 13 officers and 231 other ranks with their headquarters in wellington.

The following is a 1917 - 1924 NZAOD (Officers) hat badge.


The following is a 1917 - 1924 NZAOC (Other Ranks) hat badge.


The collars were the same for both officers and other ranks.


Going by photographic evendence, I'm going with 1918 - 1947 for this NZAOC hat badge.
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  #9  
Old 24-10-16, 11:44 PM
RNeil RNeil is offline
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Between 1914 and 1947 New Zealand Ordnance badges went thru 5 different changes.

When NZ went to war it did not have a Ordnance Corp, but as the NZEF sorted it self out it was soon realised that to fir in with the British system a Ordnance functionally would be required and the New Zealand Army Ordnance Corps (NZEF) was created. This was to be an organisation for overseas service only and its original members were drawn from withing the NZEF and reinforcements furnished from about Dec 1917.

The NZAOC (NZEF) adopted and modified the British pattern AOC Badge by placing the letters NZ on the top portion of the Shield. These original NZAOC badges are identifiable by the manufactures plaque on the rear of the badges, J.R.GAUNT.LONDON. The NZAOC (NZEF) was disestablished in 1920/21.
NZAOCorp 24-37.jpg

In 1917 the the New Zealand Army Ordnance Department (Officers) and the New Zealand Army Ordnance Corps (ORs) were created and again adopted the British Pattern AOC Badges but this time with the Letters NZ inserted on the shield in place of the middle cannon ball.
NZAODept.jpg
NZAOCorp 17-24.jpg

In 1923 the NZAOD and the NZAOC were combined in to a single New Zealand Army Ordnance Corps and adopted the NZAOD (NZEF) badge and the new Corp insignia.
NZAOCorp 24-37.jpg

This badge remained in use until 1937 when following the British lead was replaced with this pattern badge.
NZAOCorp 37-46.jpg

From Dec 1940 until 1944, the New Zealand Ordnance Corps (NZOC) who were the Territorial Army element of the Ordnance Corps and Ordnance in 2NZEF IP used the 1923-37 pattern badge.
NZAOCorp 24-37.jpg

In 1946 the NZAOC was granted Royal status and adopted the following pattern RNZAOC badge
RNZAOCorp 46-55.jpg

Which was changed again in 1953 on the coronation of QE2 with the following badge which remained in service until 1996 when the RNZAOC was disestablished.
RNZAOCorp 5596.jpg

Last edited by RNeil; 07-12-16 at 10:28 PM.
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  #10  
Old 25-10-16, 08:11 PM
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Re Post #8 0 Second image;

Any Ordnance badge with the cannons facing right must be a collar?

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  #11  
Old 25-10-16, 09:45 PM
RNeil RNeil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_2817 View Post
Re Post #8 0 Second image;

Any Ordnance badge with the cannons facing right must be a collar?

Most Ordnance Badges have the Cannons facing to the left, But the 1917-23 NZAOC badge seem seem to be an exception, as the cannons face to the Right.

At the time NZ had two Ordnance organisations, The NZ Army Ordnance Department (NZAOD), which was comprised of the Ordnance Officers, and the the
NZ Army Ordnance Corps (NZAOC), which was the the Other Ranks.

So having the cannons on the NZAOC badge facing right might have been a deliberate part of the design to differentiate the two similar, but different badges?
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  #12  
Old 29-10-16, 01:07 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Welcome to the forum RNeil, my knowledge on the 1917 – 1923 period of the NZ Ordnance has much improved since my last post just over 5 years ago.

You mention the 1NZEF NZ Ordnance badge was only worn up to 1921, and then readopted again in 1923? Is it not possible that it remained in use from 1917 up to 1923?

You also mention the same badge remained in use until 1937 when they followed the British lead and replaced it with the round garter style badge?
The following page from the Unofficial history of the NZ Ordnance Corps in the Pacific 1940 to 1944 seems to suggest it had a much longer period of use.



The following photo is borrowed from page 58 of the book “NZ Army Distinguishing patches 1911 – 1991.”
The photo shows the same badge being worn with the Pacific khaki drill “un-camouflaged” walking out dress uniform.


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  #13  
Old 30-10-16, 09:21 PM
RNeil RNeil is offline
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Yes it is quite possible the 1NZEF NZ Ordnance badge remained in use up to 1923, as many individuals who served in the NZEF and then transferred to the NZAOD/AOC on RTNZ would have just kept on wearing the original cap badge, probably unofficially but one of those uniform infringements that was tolerated as there we many more important things to worry about.

From what I can gather stocks were returned from Europe at the end of the war so when the stocks of the original pattern NZ badge were exhausted it made fiscal sense to use the NZEF badge.

You are quite correct that it probably had a longer life after the adoption of the new badge in 1937, (well the evidence is telling us it did). I have several theory's on this

1. In 1937 the unformed strength of the Corps was only sitting at around 50, and with the massive expansion that the war brought on and the scarcity of resources it again made fiscal sense recycle the old badges, especially if there were residual stocks available in the system.

2. It was adopted as the badge for the Ordnance in the NZEF IP as distinctive unit identifier from other NZ Ordnance units.

3. the new pattern badge was reserved for officers and the old pattern remained in use with OR's.

Sources are scant and historically Ordnance fly under the radar in comparison to other NZ Army units and even the official NZ Ordnance history is vague.

Last edited by RNeil; 08-11-16 at 07:09 AM.
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  #14  
Old 03-11-16, 05:29 AM
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Hi Brent and RNeil

Thank you for your interesting information about the NZ Ordnance Corps badges. I am, however, still a little confused.

Is it correct that the badge with NZ above the shield with Gaunt tabs on the rear was the first Ordnance badge followed by the badge with the NZ within the shield? If so were these two types of badges worn concurrently or did the latter replace the former. Any thoughts about why the badge design was changed?

What is the logic of dividing the Ordnance Corps into the NZAOD and NZAOC?

Cheers

John
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  #15  
Old 03-11-16, 09:55 AM
RNeil RNeil is offline
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Hi John,

The badge with the NZ above the shield was the first NZ Ordnance badge. It was adopted by the New Zealand Army Ordnance Corps of the NZEF (1914-1921). As the NZAOC(NZEF) was very small and at most only had a strength of approx 60 pers, my guess is that they adopted the British Army Ordnance Department badge and modified it with the NZ above the shield, to make it obvious who the wearers were, no doubt there was some British Ordnance officers upset that mere colonial other ranks were wearing officer pattern badge.

When the home forces in New Zealand finally got around to forming the New Zealand Army Ordnance Department (NZAOD) and the New Zealand Army Ordnance Corps (NZAOC) in 1917, they simply adopted the British Army Ordnance Corps badge, placed NZ in the place of the center cannon and the descriptor for the Department or Corps in the Riband.

Yes for a short period between 1917 and 1921, both badges would have been worn concurrently, one in Europe with the NZEF and the other in New Zealand, but no doubt some individuals would have continued to wear the NZEF badge on RTNZ.

The logic between having a separate Ordnance Department and Ordnance Corps? it was a British class thing as the Department was for officers and the Corps for Soldiers, I believe the Brits combined the two in 1918 and NZ followed suite in 1923. From what I can gather from the NZ archives, when they combined the two in New Zealand, stocks of the NZAOC (NZEF) had been returned from Europe and instead of redesigning a badge closer to the current British pattern, it was decided to utilise the existing stocks. Its quite probable that by 1923 most of the officers serving it the Corps had all served in the NZEF and one of them could have even been the one responsible for designing the original NZEF ordnance badge.

A badge closer the the modern British pattern was adopted in 1937, but the NZEF ordnance badge was resurrected for the New Zealand Ordnance services of 3NZ Division of the 2nd NZEF in the pacific between 1940-44.

Hope this helps.

Rob
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