British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Infantry (& Guards) Badges

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-02-19, 08:10 PM
Jelly Terror's Avatar
Jelly Terror Jelly Terror is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,783
Default Brecknockshire FSH & Puggaree

Visited the St. Albans Museum today, and spotted the Wolseley helmet shown below.

The cap badge at the front is Brecknockshire, and appears to be an OSD. The flash on the left side of the puggaree is very faded and discoloured. Would anybody know if this flash is correct for Brecknockshire, and what its colours (when not faded) actually are?

With thanks,

JT
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2B425A13-02EF-40F5-952A-05209E3C1504.jpg (34.5 KB, 66 views)
File Type: jpg 4E10A15F-ACB4-4A95-A69B-F9CAC0BAAA45.jpg (66.2 KB, 76 views)
File Type: jpg 2F898465-31D8-4F21-AEEB-4CE3B770D634.jpg (53.2 KB, 53 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-02-19, 09:27 PM
BROOKIES BROOKIES is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 771
Default

Evening.

Pagri flash is correct and would be green/white/green.

Helmet looks like the one (probably the same) that DNW sold from the late Llewellyn Lord collection back in Sept 16.

Ta

Jonathan
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-02-19, 09:33 PM
leigh kitchen's Avatar
leigh kitchen leigh kitchen is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,034
Default

There's a photo on eBay at the moment (well, there was yesterday) of a group of Brecknockshires with FSH bearing what looks like the same flash and possibly metal badges to the front.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-02-19, 10:11 PM
Jelly Terror's Avatar
Jelly Terror Jelly Terror is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,783
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BROOKIES View Post
Evening.

Pagri flash is correct and would be green/white/green.

Helmet looks like the one (probably the same) that DNW sold from the late Llewellyn Lord collection back in Sept 16.

Ta

Jonathan
Many thanks, Jonathan.


Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh kitchen View Post
There's a photo on eBay at the moment (well, there was yesterday) of a group of Brecknockshires with FSH bearing what looks like the same flash and possibly metal badges to the front.
Thanks Leigh. I think this must be the eBay listing you refer to:

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F401477471860
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-02-19, 10:14 PM
grey_green_acorn's Avatar
grey_green_acorn grey_green_acorn is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Kent, UK
Posts: 5,821
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh kitchen View Post
There's a photo on eBay at the moment (well, there was yesterday) of a group of Brecknockshires with FSH bearing what looks like the same flash and possibly metal badges to the front.
This one?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WW1-soldi...UAAOSwdW9aJDIY

Tim (Beaten to it!)
__________________
"Manui dat cognitio vires - Knowledge gives strength to the arm"
"Better to know it but not need it than to need it and not know it!"
"Have more than thou showest, speak less than thou knowest."
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-02-19, 11:26 PM
leigh kitchen's Avatar
leigh kitchen leigh kitchen is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,034
Default

Yes, that's the one.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-02-19, 11:42 PM
Hoot Hoot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,687
Default

I just don't see the connection of the helmet to St. Albans.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-02-19, 08:16 AM
Jelly Terror's Avatar
Jelly Terror Jelly Terror is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,783
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoot View Post
I just don't see the connection of the helmet to St. Albans.
Hoot, that’s a really good question.

In the C19th, straw hat making was a major trade in St. Albans, with over forty factories in the town. At the outbreak of the Great War, the companies that thrived were those who were willing to adapt their skills. Companies such as E. Day & Co. began to produce helmets like the Brecknockshire example on display in the museum.

I have no idea if the example on display was manufactured by a St. Albans hat maker, and I suppose a Wolseley bedecked with the insignia of a Herts unit might be deemed more appropriate for display. Then again, the fact that the this was not a Herts unit got your puzzler whirring and generated more info.

JT

Last edited by Jelly Terror; 10-02-19 at 09:43 AM. Reason: Typo correction
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-02-19, 08:21 AM
leigh kitchen's Avatar
leigh kitchen leigh kitchen is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,034
Default

Some FSH were made of fabric covered straw, I wonder if this one is?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-02-19, 08:24 AM
leigh kitchen's Avatar
leigh kitchen leigh kitchen is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,034
Default

Aha - a St Alban's manufactured straw FSH.
A quick Google rather than a trip to check Peter Sucui and Stuart Bates books -
http://www.militarysunhelmets.com/20...lseley-helmets

"Only two straw Wolseleys are known to survive and are in the author’s collection."

One manufactured by E. Day, St Alban's is shown in the link, it's badged and named to the KSLI, 1915.

Last edited by leigh kitchen; 10-02-19 at 09:32 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-02-19, 08:36 AM
Jelly Terror's Avatar
Jelly Terror Jelly Terror is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,783
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh kitchen View Post
Aha - a St Alban's manufactured straw FSH.
A quick Google rather than a trip to check Peter Sucui and Stuart Asquith's books -
http://www.militarysunhelmets.com/20...lseley-helmets

"Only two straw Wolseleys are known to survive and are in the author’s collection."

One manufactured by E. Day, St Alban's is shown in the link, it's badged and named to the KSLI, 1915.
Nice one, Leigh.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-02-19, 08:36 AM
BROOKIES BROOKIES is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 771
Default

As I think it's the same or close to the DNW helmet, listing below.

Brecknockshire Battalion WWI Period Tropical Helmet, a very rare example retailed by ‘E. Day, St. Albans, 1918’ complete with quilted buff coloured cotton pagri and sewn in pagri Div. sign being green with central white stripe (the green now faded), to the front the Brecknockshire Battalion cap badge in die stamped gilding metal, internally complete with original leather sweat band and green canvas lining to the peaks, War Office internal stamping ‘162/Wbroad arrowD/O’, leather chin strap mostly present but fractured in two places, some fraying to the cotton pagri cloth but generally very good condition for age £300-500

Ta

Jonathan
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-02-19, 08:44 AM
Jelly Terror's Avatar
Jelly Terror Jelly Terror is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,783
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BROOKIES View Post
As I think it's the same or close to the DNW helmet, listing below.

Brecknockshire Battalion WWI Period Tropical Helmet, a very rare example retailed by ‘E. Day, St. Albans, 1918’ complete with quilted buff coloured cotton pagri and sewn in pagri Div. sign being green with central white stripe (the green now faded), to the front the Brecknockshire Battalion cap badge in die stamped gilding metal, internally complete with original leather sweat band and green canvas lining to the peaks, War Office internal stamping ‘162/Wbroad arrowD/O’, leather chin strap mostly present but fractured in two places, some fraying to the cotton pagri cloth but generally very good condition for age £300-500

Ta

Jonathan
Here is a snap of the underside, though there’s not much to see. The display stand it’s mounted on obscrures any chance at seeing a maker mark and other detail.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg E57EED07-A5FA-425D-81A9-2497CD4B7465.jpg (42.7 KB, 32 views)
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-02-19, 08:46 AM
Toby Purcell's Avatar
Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Completed colour service and retired
Posts: 3,202
Default

The Brecknockshire Regt became a VB of the South Wales Borderers and it is that regiment’s ‘green-white-green’ flash on the side of the helmet. Unlike the Monmouth’s the Brecknock’s always retained their close association with the SWB.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-02-19, 10:52 AM
Hoot Hoot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,687
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jelly Terror View Post
Hoot, that’s a really good question.

In the C19th, straw hat making was a major trade in St. Albans, with over forty factories in the town. At the outbreak of the Great War, the companies that thrived were those who were willing to adapt their skills. Companies such as E. Day & Co. began to produce helmets like the Brecknockshire example on display in the museum.

I have no idea if the example on display was manufactured by a St. Albans hat maker, and I suppose a Wolseley bedecked with the insignia of a Herts unit might be deemed more appropriate for display. Then again, the fact that the this was not a Herts unit got your puzzler whirring and generated more info.

JT
Thanks for that JT, I am now feeling somewhat embarrassed. Being fairly local to St. Albans, 13 miles up the A5, I had completely overlooked the St. Albans hat trade. Being from the Luton area we were taught all about the hat trade at school and about it's importance to Luton and the surrounding area. My only excuse is old age and absent-mindedness. Yours, the Mad Hatter.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 03:38 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.