All brass KSLI badge

[Luke H]

Some years ago I hesitated on the King’s Shropshire Light Infantry badge on the white background as I knew it didn’t exist on the 1916 all Gilding Metal issue list. The badge quickly sold and I regretted it ever since as it looked for all the world to be a good badge.

Recently I was lucky enough to find another which I am equally satisfied is from the same stable and genuine.

One of the things that adds to the intrigue is both badges have scars where loops were originally fitted E-W.

I’m under no illusions and know this is in no way a 1916 all GM issue badge. However I also have no doubts that both are genuine. The all brass Notts & Derby badge springs to mind as being another example of a badge which shouldn’t exist in that form but does.

Do any members have any info or ideas on this badge or when it was worn? From the slider I would expect it to certainty be pre-WW2.

[Phil2M]

Very interesting badges, however, I can not contribute anything to help.

[KLR]

Although the 1916 list has the regular SOMLI badge is listed as BM
but the 4th & 5th Somerset LI Patt No 636/1915 was in GS (aka WM) (and 6k were ordered in April 1916).

If there was an all WM there might be an all GM - I note that the letters are added on, meaning that different metals could be combined in any way..


The only other origin I can think of is c 2nd WW Indian made - though yours looks neatly made - though I'm not dismissing; some are crude but some a re v good.


Apart from that, it could be an unofficial production.

[Chipper]

Hi Luke,

like Phil, I really don't know, but you know, any info is good info..so...

Shropshire had a "pals" formation, (6th Service, or part thereof). It may have been company or even platoon size, I have not gone into it too far as yet - I assumed they wore the standard cap badge, but.....while I think unlikely they had a special cap badge, it does follow a certain logic, especially a GM version.

Maybe someone here who specialises in KSLI has some knowledge out there as to this small formation and can at least discount it.

Cheers, Tim

[Alan O]

[QUOTE=KLR;489677]Although the 1916 list has the regular SOMLI badge is listed as BM
but the 4th & 5th Somerset LI Patt No 636/1915 was in GS (aka WM) (and 6k were ordered in April 1916).


Julian

Are you sure that the Somerset LI badge was authorised for all brass? Both the 1908 4th & 5th Somerset Li and the regular badge was single piece wm not bi-metal.

Alan

[Alan O]

[QUOTE=KLR;489677]Although the 1916 list has the regular SOMLI badge is listed as BM
but the 4th & 5th Somerset LI Patt No 636/1915 was in GS (aka WM) (and 6k were ordered in April 1916).


Julian

Are you sure that the Somerset LI badge was authorised for all brass? Both the 1908 4th & 5th Somerset Li and the regular badge was single piece wm not bi-metal.

The only bi-metal Light Infantry badge produced in all brass was the King's Own Yorkshire LI. KOLYI not KSLI or SLI.
Alan

[KLR]

OK I got confused between Shropshire and Somerset LI !!


BUT even so, No, there was no mention in the WO archives for KSLI in GM = 'gilding metal' (which superseded 'brass' in the 1890s - I have the date somewhere


The WO entry for the SHROPSHIRE lists it as

4638/1898 10,000 Shropshire LI GM & GS


GS = "German Silver" = 'white metal'

[Luke H]

Thanks everyone.

That’s very interesting Tim about the KSLI Pals contingent, I had no idea. Looking forward to seeing all your research. I agree is a certain logic there for sure but I’m not daring to dream that it’s potentially akin to the GM Notts & Derby or ‘Welch’ Regt badges... yet

Cheers Julian, I’m 100% sure it’s British made. The unofficial production I think is the most likely candidate so far seeing as the official records we have don’t support its existence.

The loops I felt may have supported a TF produced badge but why they’ve been professionally removed on both badges and replaced with a shank doesn’t make much sense to me. I did wonder if perhaps there was a BB badge for a certain battalion but both badges show no signs of blacking.

Believe Roy is a specialist Shropshire collector so hopefully he sees this and can chime in.

[Chipper]

Just a theory, so take this with a grain of salt:

The TF battalion (according to Wiki) was in India, not returning to the Western front until 1917. Could it be possible there was a 'cache' of all GM badges stashed somewhere that the newly formed service battalions nicked and had sliders put on?
This theory assumes the TF battalion (1/4th) wore GM badges, and not the Bi-metal badge, which I have no info about.

It could also be that some of the Service Bttn's had a badge (unofficially) made, and for whatever reason, a batch were mistakenly made with lugs perhaps?

At this time there seemed to be a "Pals competition" with areas, towns, vocations and sportsman all forming formations, from Battalion right down to Company and even platoon size. Shropshire alone had (unofficially):

Shrewsbury Pals
Bridgenorth Pals
Oswestry Pals

All were company sized, so while I imagine impossible to prove conclusively, I can see one or more of them independently ordering badges, and we all know that when laymen get involved, mistakes happen....

So really just conjecture, but within the realms of possibility...

Cheers, Tim

[High Wood]

Originally Posted by Chipper

Just a theory, so take this with a grain of salt:

Could it be possible there was a 'cache' of all GM badges stashed somewhere that the newly formed service battalions nicked and had sliders put on?

Cheers, Tim

The only thing wrong with this argument is that under war time conditions, it would be cheaper, quicker and easier to punch two small holes in the front of the cap, rather than send several hundred badges off to a manufacturer to have lugs removed and sliders fitted.

[Chipper]

Yep, I do agree it's a stretch, but never underestimate the power of illogical

Originally Posted by High Wood

The only thing wrong with this argument is that under war time conditions, it would be cheaper, quicker and easier to punch two small holes in the front of the cap, rather than send several hundred badges off to a manufacturer to have lugs removed and sliders fitted.

[Luke H]

Like your thinking Tim and bouncing ideas around is definitely the best way to stimulate discussion and ‘the little grey cells’ - as Poirot would say.

As Simon says un-brazing (if that’s a word) 2 loops then brazing on a slider seems a lot of work when at that point I’m sure they’d have taken anything to get kitted out ASAP. Also the all GM Notts & Derby and ‘Welch’ Regt badges all have loops so I think they weren’t bothered with correct official fittings for the time.

The conversion I think on the balance of probabilities is likely to be more slow-time because of the effort involved. So perhaps the fitting of loops was a manufacturers mistake which they then rectified to bring them into line with the WO fixing specifications. Potentially pre-war or even post-war?

Conversely, as you put it never underestimate the power of illogical! Think of 1916 GM issue badges, one would think that the GM contracts be handed to the manufacturers with the dies and they simply strike the badge in all GM. Not so. Contracts were handed out to the likes of Lambournes and F.E. Woodward etc. who cut new dies to make the all GM badges e.g. Leinster, Inniskilling Fus etc.

The original purpose of the badge being an unusual GM struck bugle with the standard GM KSLI added is where I suspect the answer to this mystery lays. Was this a TF order originally? Could the whole badge be a factory mistake? Then who wore them and when they were issued is also is a separate question potentially.

I’ve dropped Roy a PM so hopefully he has some info to add to this fascinating discussion.

Thanks again to everyone.

[Tinto]

Hi Luke, and others,
Forgive me for joining in here but I have a smaller Shropshire all GM badge with slider shown here alongside the usual size hat badge.
Could anyone date this please?
Cheers, Tinto

[Luke H]

Hi Tinto,

1970s or later I’d say. Everything about it looks typically repro to me. I’ve seen a few on eBay like it all with the modern wedge-like sliders.

Have an idea there was a smaller beret KSLI fake in the MM catalogue which I missed off when photographing as I mistook it for a duplicate of the larger badge. I shall check tomorrow to see if I’m not mistaken and how it compares to these smaller ones.

Cheers,

Luke

[Luke H]

Here it is 420. Note the thistles coming down and touching the KSLI letters.

I’ve attached the larger repro (454) for comparison.