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  #16  
Old 29-02-12, 10:18 PM
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Hi again Graham,

In the original photo does the VTC Officer wear shoulder titles ?

Cheers Dean
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  #17  
Old 01-03-12, 07:34 PM
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Default Leicestershire Volunteer Regiment

What a cracking photo Graham – many thanks indeed for posting this up. It really is great to see images like this of insignia in use, and shows just how important photograph collections can be to those of us interested in the history of cap badges, etc. As to the Leicestershire Volunteer Regiment, I’ve been looking through the book by Glenn A. Steppler, Britons, To Arms!: The Story of the British Volunteer Soldier, which Griff M-J kindly recommended (to be honest I hadn’t come across this myself, so am most grateful to Griff for letting us know about this).

Anyway, according to Mr Steppler in June 1916 the Duke of Rutland, on behalf of the Leicestershire Territorial Association, though seemingly on his own initiative, agreed to provide three Volunteer Battalions. Before this date there had apparently been a number of different volunteer groups within Leicestershire and Rutland. Nevertheless, the Territorial Association had nominally taken over the administration of the local volunteers by September 1916, though it was not until the beginning of 1917 that equipment and uniforms started to be provided by the War Office. In February of that year Col. J. E. Sarson, the old commander of the pre-1908 1st Volunteer Battalion of the Leicestershire Regiment, stepped in to become the County Commandant. In Appendix 5.1 of his book, pp. 163-164, Mr Steppler lists three battalions to the Leicestershire Volunteer Regiment as of February 1917 (all three originally having been the Leicester and Leicestershire Volunteer Training Corps):

1st Battalion Leicestershire Volunteer Regiment (known as the ‘Leicester Battalion’ and drawn from the City)
2nd Battalion Leicestershire Volunteer Regiment (called the ‘Western Battalion’ and coving Loughborough, Ashby de la Zouch and Hinckley)
3rd Battalion Leicestershire Volunteer Regiment (covering Syston, Narborough, Melton Mowbray and Market Harborough)

In addition to this there were also a Mounted Section, the Leicester Motor Volunteers, a Pharmacists Section (connected to the Leicester Battalion) and a single battalion for Rutland – the 1st Rutland Volunteer Regiment. By the middle of 1917 permission was given to split the 1st ‘Leicester’ Battalion into two, and in May 1918 the various Leicestershire battalions became associated with the County Regiment and were renamed accordingly (see Appendix 5.2 in Britons, To Arms!, p. 164):

1/1st Battalion Leicestershire Volunteer Regiment > 1st Volunteer Battalion Leicestershire Regiment
2/1st Battalion Leicestershire Volunteer Regiment > 4th Volunteer Battalion Leicestershire Regiment
2nd Battalion Leicestershire Volunteer Regiment > 2nd Volunteer Battalion Leicestershire Regiment
3rd Battalion Leicestershire Volunteer Regiment > 3rd Volunteer Battalion Leicestershire Regiment

There is no indication here of the cap badges worn after the renaming of the battalions, and it would be interesting to know if they adopted the Leicestershire Regiments’ tiger badge or whether they retained their own. It seems that following the end of the War the Volunteer Battalions took part in a final parade in June 1919 in front of the King, before being disbanded at the end of that year (see Britons, To Arms!, pp. 122-130 for the full account of the ‘Volunteer on the Home Front’).

Best regards

Martin
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Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

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Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 01-03-12 at 08:20 PM.
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  #18  
Old 01-03-12, 09:21 PM
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Martin - thanks for the heads up on that book, which I'll keep an eye open for.

It's interesting that the details of those early battalions differ slightly to those listed in the Volunteer Force Directory of 10th October 1916. In it you have the;- 1st(Leicester)Bn; 2nd(Loughborough)Bn and 3rd(Market Harborough/Melton Mowbray)Bn.

No H.Q.'s addresses are given and so they must have been in the early stages of organisation.

Leicester V.R.JPG
As they would appear post-1916, with "Royal Arms" capbadge and white worsted "V/LEICESTER" shoulder title woven into the shoulder strap.

PS
Almost forgot, post July 1918 all of them as you know became Volunteer Battalions and so adopted regular pattern badges.
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  #19  
Old 02-03-12, 01:10 PM
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Default Leicestershire Vol. Regt Photos

Hi Graham

Many thanks for sharing another great photograph with the rest of us – just shows how educational the Forum can be when members like your good self are so ready to impart their knowledge. If I have things right then the ORs of the Leicestershire Volunteer Battalions would have worn the General Service cap badge, like the solider in your picture, but that the officers would have worn the bronzed OSD badge like the one Dean has that stated this thread, and which appears to also be shown in the photograph of the man from Hinckley with his three sons?

It is also interesting to have it confirmed that following the changes in 1918, and the fact that the Volunteer Regiment’s Battalions became associated with the Leicestershire Regiment, that they did indeed adopt the Leicesters’ tiger badge. Obviously I am particularly interested in this given my research into the Regiment’s tiger cap badges, and so I am personally most grateful to you for this. As to Glenn Steppler’s book, it was actually Griff M-J in post No. 3 to this thread who first mentioned it. As I hadn’t heard of this before myself I took the opportunity of looking through it at the Library the other day, and then thought I might as well post up a summary of what it said about the Volunteer Battalions to the Forum. Good to have the information from the Volunteer Force Directory of 10th October 1916 as well, given this confirms some of what Mr Steppler has. Anyway, thanks again for the latest photo and information – all of which is very much appreciated.

Best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 03-03-12 at 08:29 PM.
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  #20  
Old 02-03-12, 01:59 PM
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Army Order 208 of 1918 originally gave the go ahead for affiliation of Battalions of Volunteer Regiments to their local County Regiment and as such nearly all became 'Volunteer Battalions' of those County Regiments, as you've already pointed out with Leicestershire.

As a result ACI 898 of August 1918 confirmed that they would also be allowed to wear the badges of those County regiments(produced here).
ACI 898.jpg ACI 898a.jpg

Previously it was the 'Royal Arms' badges which were worn by both officers and other ranks of the Volunteer Force, as a whole, in both bronze(officers) and gm(O/R's). However I have seen photo's where some officers, and occassionally O/R's, continue to wear their VTC unit badges, while all others wear the Royal Arms.

As far as I'm aware the only Volunteer Force units uneffected by these changes were those based in London due to the diversity of the T.F. units based there. As a result I believe they continued to wear the 'Royal Arms' badges, introduced for the Volunteer Force in 1916.

The same ruling of ACI 898 also applied to the Corps of the Volunteer Force, who went onto adopt badges of the R.A.; R.E.; A.S.C. etc.

The shoulder titles mentioned, were simply a continuation of those taken into wear in 1916, in the fact that they had to be 'County' titles, e.g. for those units affiliated to Light Infanty regiments they simply wore "V/Durham" etc. The same was applied to those associated with Fusilier Regiments who would wear "V/NORTHUMBERLAND" and so on. At the same time some of these units took it further and I have seen a lovely "V/DURHAM" title in brass from this period.

Last edited by Graham Stewart; 02-03-12 at 02:07 PM.
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  #21  
Old 03-03-12, 06:06 PM
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Default Leicestershire Vol. Regt Badges

Hi Graham

This is tremendous stuff – thank you so much for putting this up about ACI 898 of 1918, which is exceptionally interesting.

From your research then it would appear that the Leicestershire Volunteer Regiment, both officers and men, probably wore the General Service Royal Arms cap badge from their formation in 1916 up until the changes of 1918, when they may well have adopted the Leicestershire Regiment’s tiger cap badge. Though this does leave me wondering when Dean’s OSD “LVR” fox badge would have been worn? I have to say, it does look like the chap from Hinckley in the photo you put in post No. 14 seems to be wearing this very same badge, so did officers of the Leicestershire Volunteer Regiment wear this in preference to the Royal Arms one between 1916 and 1918?

It’s also worth noting here that ACI 898 does say “the adoption of the new badges, etc., is entirely optional for both officers and units”, so unless we can find definite evidence I suppose it is still possible the Leicestershire Volunteer Regiment did not make the change to the Leicesters’ tiger badges in 1918. The other interesting thing is how ACI 898 stipulates that, whilst the new cap badges were to be the same as those worn by the “T.F. units of the corps or regiments to which the various Volunteer units are affiliated”, it also has the proviso that “except that all honours, mottos and battalion numbers which are incorporated in any of these badge will be omitted”. This omission of honours is particularly interesting, as the Territorial Battalions themselves, whose badges had previously omitted regimental honours, had gained the right to wear the same badges as the regulars in the September of 1917 (see a posting I made here about this). Does this then mean that if the LVR did adopt the Leicesters’ tiger cap badge in 1918, it would actually have been one without the top ‘Hindoostan’ scroll; in other words, the version previously worn by the 4th and 5th Battalions of the Leicestershire Regiment?? As I say, all very interesting, especially for me – just hope someone can help by answering some of these questions!!

Anyway, many thanks again for posting all of this up; it’s something completely new to me and I’m very grateful to you for sharing things with me and the rest of the Forum.

Best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 04-03-12 at 10:33 AM.
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  #22  
Old 03-03-12, 06:38 PM
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Martin - in all honesty I can't really say what Leicester did, but of those photo's I do have post-1918, where the Volunteer Battalion has taken into wear those badges as granted by ACI 898, they have been those worn by both the regulars & T.F.. In otherwards there was virtually no difference with which to distinguish them, apart from those who wore distinguishing badges, which in the main would be those with "Rifles" association, again something which I believe is covered by an ACI.

As for the 'LVR' badge, I have always been of the opinion it was pre-Volunteer Force, i.e. worn prior to the adoption of the Royal Arms badges in 1916.
3rd V.B.,N.F. 1918.jpg Northumberland R.G.A. Vols - 1.jpg
Northumberland Cadets S-T.JPG
From my collection;- members of 'A' Coy, 3rd V.B., N.F., 1918; The senior ranks of Northumberland RGA Volunteers, 1918; Shoulder title of Northumberland Volunteer Cadets.
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  #23  
Old 03-03-12, 07:07 PM
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ACI 1338.jpg ACI 1338a.jpg

ACI 1338 of 1916 to which one of your links refers and the change to the supply of badges to the T.F..
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  #24  
Old 03-03-12, 08:48 PM
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Default Leicestershire Regt Vol. Battns Badges

Hi Graham

Many thanks indeed for the latest postings, and most particularly for the copy of ACI 1338 – which obviously confirms what Stephen said in his posting about the War Office taking over the supply of cap badges, etc., to the Territorial Force in 1916. Not that I doubted him, but it’s always good to see these things in print.

As to the wearing of the regular cap badge of the Leicesters by the Leicestershire Volunteer Battalions after ACI 898 of 1918, if your research and collection show this was the case with other regiments then I’m sure it makes it all the more likely it happened with the Leicestershire ones as well. I just thought it strange that after AO 298 of 1917 specifically granted the right for the territorial battalions to wear the same badges as the regulars, including the regimental honours like the Leicesters’ ‘Hindoostan’, that ACI 898 made a point of saying the new badges to be adopted by the volunteer battalions had to omit such honours. It made me think that possibly a stock of the then redundant top scroll-less Leicesters tiger badges might just have found their way to the Leicesters volunteers! Maybe whoever drafted ACI 898 didn’t know about AO 298!?

However this still leaves the question of Dean’s “LVR” badge of course – Glenn Steppler appears to suggest that the Leicestershire Volunteer Regiment only came into being in 1916, so I can’t personally see how the badge in question was an earlier volunteer corps badge, unless “LVR” stands for something other than “Leicestershire Volunteer Regiment”; or perhaps I am missing something? Anyway, I really must thank you for all your contributions to this thread – I hope other Forum members have found this as interesting and helpful as I have.

Very best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”
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  #25  
Old 04-03-12, 01:47 PM
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Hi Martin - well the ggod news is that I can confirm from VTC Regs dated January 1916 that both Leicestershire & Rutland were two of those counties which came together to form a 'Volunteer Regiment' prior to War Office recognition and the formation of the Volunteer Force.
officialregulati00centrich_0037.jpg
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  #26  
Old 04-03-12, 02:56 PM
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what it says in the regulations didn't always seem to happen.
in mid 1916 the lvr was wearing the light green type vtc uniform ,dark green cap band fox over lvr badge.officers same badge on collars bronze letters LVR s/titles.
rutland v r. light grey uniform,gen service cap badge and the famous rutland horseshoe on the collars (later adapted as ww2 home guard badge).
although lord ranksborough seems to have been the man behind both regiments.
Bob
Attached Images
File Type: jpg RUT 001 (550x395).jpg (93.9 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg RUT 002 (550x257).jpg (59.2 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg LVR 002 (409x550).jpg (66.9 KB, 13 views)
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  #27  
Old 04-03-12, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncc View Post
what it says in the regulations didn't always seem to happen.
in mid 1916 the lvr was wearing the light green type vtc uniform ,dark green cap band fox over lvr badge.officers same badge on collars bronze letters LVR s/titles.
rutland v r. light grey uniform,gen service cap badge and the famous rutland horseshoe on the collars (later adapted as ww2 home guard badge).
although lord ranksborough seems to have been the man behind both regiments.
Bob
Bob - don't think you're quite up to speed on this, but you're looking at two different formations here. The 'Volunteer Regiment' created within the VTC by the two counties became seperate entities on the formation of the 'new' Volunteer Force in 1916. As such Rutland created it's own unit seperated from Leicester. This is clearly stated in the Volunteer Force Directory(and all other documents there after), which showed Command's, Regiments and Battalions therein.

Your first photo clearly shows the 1st Bn, Rutland Volunteer Regiment post-1916, as it would look after the introduction of SD to these units, and although the photo is not quite clear I think you'll find they're wearing the Royal Arms badge as mentioned in previous posts - a badge which was specifically used by the Volunteer Force.

The latter photo clearly shows the Duke as a member of the VTC in the grey/uniform of that particular force.

Last edited by Graham Stewart; 04-03-12 at 05:24 PM.
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  #28  
Old 04-03-12, 05:23 PM
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if there was a volunteer regiment before the 1916 LVR how come there is no actual evidence of its existance as an entity.
there is evidence of a leicester home defence corp. citizens training corp.
rutland home defence corp. leicester vtc there was even an oakham vtc with a badge of its own. are you saying that all these were all actually one 'volunteer regiment' or just members of the same volunteer association

Bob
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  #29  
Old 04-03-12, 06:25 PM
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Briefly there were four phases to the Volunteer movement of WWI;-
Phase 1 - The formation of independant units throughout the UK, many of which used the term "Home Defence Corps" - "Citizens Training League" and so on. They were neither supported nor recognised by anyone other than themselves. Their uniform in the main was civvies, but many adopted lapel badges as seen in one of this Forums albums.

Phase 2 - These loosely independent units were invited to join a new organisation in 1914/15 - "The Central Association of Volunteer Training Corps". As such all of the independent titles disappeared and the term Volunteer Training Corps(V.T.C.) added, e.g. 'Newcastle-upon-Tyne Citizens Training League' became "Newcastle-upon-Tyne V.T.C.". Where you had more than one unit in a City, they usually came together to form one or more battalions. By the end of 1915 many of these VTC units, within certain Counties organised themselves into Volunteer Regiments. However they were still not recognised by the War Offfice, despite the efficiency and organisation of the C.A.V.T.C.

Phase 3 - Mid-1916 saw total recognition by the War Office and as such it became "The Volunteer Force". With this the C.A.V.T.C. disappeared as did the title 'V.T.C.' disappear from all units within this Force - however some units decided not to join due to the fact that they had to swear an oath of allegiance and so were disbanded.

All units were then formed into new Volunteer Regiments, which were based on Counties within the Command structure then in place for the regular army and all the former V.T.C. units were then formed into battalions, within their new Volunteer Regiment. All units within the Force were to be administered by their local Territorial Force Associations, who were responsible for equipping them.

Phase 4 - The final phase. Mid-1918 saw the introduction of new titles in recognition of the service they had provided. In most cases all became "Volunteer Battalions", but still within the Volunteer Regiment organisation - e.g. 1st Bn, Northumberland Volunteer Regt became 1st Volunteer Bn, Northumberland Fusiliers, Northumberland Volunteer Regiment and so on.

In effect the titles which had been used by the old Volunteer Force of 1881-1908 had been resurrected as did the old Volunteer Acts of that period.

Apologies if it's not any clearer, but it took me years to get my head around it all and it was only by reading C.A.V.T.C. Regulations, ACI's, AO's, VTC Gazettes, VTC Notes, VF Gazettes, VF Notes and practically every local newspaper in the North East, that it eventually became clearer. I even managed to track down and copy the late 1918 ORBAT, which had been locked away in the War Office Library since the end of WWI.
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  #30  
Old 04-03-12, 08:16 PM
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Default LVR (Leicestershire Volunteer Regiment) Badge, 1915/16-1917?

Many thanks to everyone for the latest postings: Bob for some smashing photos, and Graham for some brilliant research – really great stuff!

So it seems that we do now have a pretty definitive answer as to when Dean’s “LVR” badge would have been worn, and that this was mostly likely to have been towards the end of 1915 or beginning of 1916, when many of the different volunteer/home defence/citizen training corps, which Bob mentioned, came together to form the Leicestershire Volunteer Regiment that Graham talks about (covering both Leicestershire and Rutland).

It was only after the creation of “The Volunteer Force” in the middle of 1916 then that the new battalions (the 1st, 2nd, 3rd battalions of the Leicestershire Volunteer Regiment, and the 1st battalion of the Rutland Volunteer Regiment) would have adopted the General Service Royal Arms cap badge; as is illustrated in Bob’s photo of the officers of the Rutland Volunteer Regiment. Though given Glenn Steppler tells us the issuing of equipment and uniforms did not start until the beginning of 1917, it could well be that, in the case of Leicestershire and Rutland at least, it was only at this point that the new badges replaced the older “LVR” ones.

The excellent picture of “Mr S. F. Aspell”, as Bob points out, shows him clearly wearing an “LVR” cap badge and matching collars. I’m sure Dean will be very pleased to see this, and learn that Graham’s in-depth research definitely indicates we are looking at a badge that would have been worn from late 1915/early 1916, possibly through to the beginning of 1917 (going by what Mr Steppler has in his book). I know this Forum member is most grateful to have all the information that has been contributed to this particular thread – thank you.

Best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”
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