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  #1  
Old 03-04-13, 06:29 PM
actionoke actionoke is offline
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Default LEICESTERSHIRE COLLECTION

I am not a British Regiment collector but got this collection and would like to know period badges used and where they would be worn ie cap,collar etc
Thanks
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  #2  
Old 20-04-13, 08:46 AM
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Default Leicestershire Regiment badges identified

Many thanks Alan for allowing me to purchase these Leicestershire Regiment badges for the family collection.

The first is an Officers silver and gilt Victorian Helmet plate 1881-1902. The green cloth backing may well suggest that it belongs to the 2nd or 3rd Battalion. The first Battalion version is in my Leicesters album with a black cloth backing as noted in K&K. K&K note that the The in the title came into effect in 1904, however, I believe this to be an error and The Leicestershire regiment took on this title in July 1881 (Churchill p. 87) as both QVC Officers helmet plates I have bear The Leicestershire Regiment title as is shown in K&K 232 with KC.

The next is an Officers cap Tiger badge in silver and gilt (as per K&K 612). It is a cast two piece badge which is unmarked but similar in construction to my Gaunt marked Officers badge again in my Leicesters album. Dating 1897 through to 1946 but a lugged version like this is likely to be Victorian/Edwardian issue.

The next is an attractive Officers two piece forage cap badge for 1st, 2nd and 3rd battalions. This badge bears the Irish harp for their service in Ireland awarded in 1798 and the Tiger for India (1804-1823). I have an OSD version in the same album. The ORs glengarry 1874-1881 and the Officers helmet plate 1879-1881 (Churchill p. 88).

The smaller badge is an unusual badge - it bears the Tiger and Harp of the Officers forage cap badge but lacks the backing plate and is in gilding metal with broached pin. This could be a side cap badge or an early sweatheart badge.

The collar (not photographed) is an Officers collar with brass lugs and is a noted variant in Churchill Fig. 535 with raised paw.

The buttons are Firmin and Sons sealed Officers pattern.

It is possible that as these badges came from South Africa that they were worn in the Boer war where the 1st Battalion and 3rd Battalion (Leicestershire Militia pre-1881) were engaged. Again the green backing cloth of the HP suggests the 3rd Battalion.

Keen to have advice on these whilst I do more research, cheers and thanks again Alan, Dean.
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  #3  
Old 24-04-13, 07:06 PM
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'Ticker' Riley 'Ticker' Riley is offline
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Default Newly acquired Leicesters badges

Hi Dean

It’s been a long time since we were last in touch, and longer still since I last actively contributed to the Forum. Life generally conspires to keep me from ‘things badges’, but your latest posting has prompted me to drop by, if only to make a few observations/comments. Firstly, congratulations on your latest acquisitions from actionoke, you’ve certainly got some lovely items here. As you’ll be aware I do not profess to be an expert on military accoutrement, so am not in a position to help you with most of what you’ve bought, but given my research into the Leicesters’ tiger cap badge I was particularly interested to see the officer’s silver and gilt example.

You may well be right inasmuch as this collection, including the cap badge, do date from the time of the Boer War, and could well be connected to the 3rd Battalion of the Regiment. However, I’m not sure the fact that the cap badge has loops (lugs) is as significant as you think. It is certainly true that ORs’ badges like this would be pre-1903, but as far as I was aware Officers’ S&G badges do normally have loops as opposed to other fittings - at least the other Leicesters ones I’ve seen have loops. I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong about this. Anyway, I still think there is a good chance the badge in question is early, but I don’t believe this can be determined simply by it having loops I’m afraid.

Although it’s not that obvious from the photos, I assume that most of the gilding on the front has actually rubbed off? There also looks to be a fair bit of wear on the titles, especially the bottom ‘Leicestershire’ scroll, perhaps because of the way it has been cleaned in the past?? The badge also has what I would have thought was a quite unusual feature, and that is, when you look at it from the back, there is a substantial section of the bottom of the badge taken away, right in the middle of where the bottom title scroll goes across. I would have expected this to be solid, but perhaps this was the easiest way for this particular manufacturer to get a gap between the bottom title and the grassy base when looked at from the front?

I do realise that some of the above is just questions rather than answers, so I hope you don’t mind me sharing my observations with you. Taking of observing, I see your Leicestershire album has quite a few additions in it since I last looked, one of which is a particularly nice Territorial OSD badge. I’ve only seen a couple of these badges for the Leicesters, and sadly do not have one myself – you really must let me know your sources!! What’s intriguing about this is the north-south orientation of the blades, rather than the normal east-west. No doubt some other member will be able to enlighten us on why this was the case, but presumably it has something to do with the headgear upon which it was worn, and by extension the period?

Well, I’ll leave things there for now, and congratulations again on the recent purchases.

Best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”
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  #4  
Old 24-04-13, 07:18 PM
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KLR KLR is offline
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It's good to see you back on the Forum Martin, your research and insights have been sorely missed.
I have heard that S&G badges have loops / lugs because the badge itself needs taking off the cap every so often to polish it - whereas bronze OSD badges have blades (which will not suffer constant bending and unbending) because they don't really need to be taken off a cap once on !

Yes, I've been wondering about NS versus EW (lugs and blades) - let alone three lugs; one NB and two EW below !
J

Last edited by KLR; 24-04-13 at 07:36 PM.
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  #5  
Old 25-04-13, 06:53 PM
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Default N-S versus E-W alignment of blades

Hello Julian

Many thanks for your kind words, of which I am wholly undeserving. It is good to be back on the Forum, though I can’t say how long this stay will last I’m afraid. I only wish I had more time to undertake research, especially looking through the records, but as you’ll know it’s never easy with work and everything. Oh, by the way, thank you for your Christmas message which I read yesterday!!

The idea of blades being used instead of loops on OSD badges, because of them not needing to be removed to be cleaned in the same way a S&G badge would, does seem sound enough, and I suppose blades offered a firmer fixing than loops and a pin. However I do have one silver Volunteer Battalion badge to the Leicesters with blades which, presumably, would have needed to be taken off and cleaned fairly regularly?

As to the north-south versus the east-west alignment, I really don’t know the answer to this but do wonder if it isn’t associated with a change of headgear for officers? The Leicestershire 1st Volunteer Battalion badge I’ve mentioned has its blades in the more usual east-west orientation, which means this was being used before 1908. I don’t have a comparable OSD badge for the Volunteers, so can’t say if they were using these badges with east-west blades from 1902, when I believe officers’ service dress came in, up until they became the Territorials.

Having said that, Dean’s Leicesters Territorials’ OSD badge, which now has north-south blades, appears to originally have had them set east-west. I am also aware of a white-metal ‘walking-out’ Territorials badge to the Leicesters, that I assume could have been worn from 1908 up to 1917 when the TF were ‘permitted’ to wear the same badges as the parent regiment, which similarly has north-south blades. Could there have been some kind of new officers’ hat which came in around 1908? It would be interesting to perhaps open this question up as a new thread, as I wouldn’t want to bog Alan and Dean’s thread down with this. Maybe Dean would be good enough to post up his Territorial OSD elsewhere to kick things off?

Anyway, as I say, I don’t have the answer to this, let alone where three blades fit into things, but I would think it must lie in the headgear being worn at different times.

Best regards

Martin
__________________
From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”
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  #6  
Old 27-04-13, 10:07 AM
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mooke07 mooke07 is offline
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Smile Leicester Tigers

Great to have your insightful posts thanks Martin and I second Julian in welcoming you back.

I too have trouble fitting in posts at times but we all try our best.

There is quite a bit of difference between both S&G Leicesters Officers cap badges I have in my Leicesters album so I have shown pics below alongside each other. The latest addition is heavily polished and the gilt just about all removed. My original Gaunt marked one is nicely gilded and quite curved presumably to fit the cap. Yes there is quite a gap on the rear of the bottom scroll that leaves a a gap between the grass plinth upon which the tiger stands and the bottom scroll.

Both are two piece with pins in exactly the same position. Both have flaws to the first E one below and one above curiously.

Like you Martin I do like my tigers and these two could be as far apart as an Indian and an African one!

Cheers Dean.
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  #7  
Old 28-04-13, 05:17 PM
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'Ticker' Riley 'Ticker' Riley is offline
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Default Different S&G Tigers

Hi Dean

Glad to hear you found my comments of some interest, and I certainly agree there are considerable differences between your two tigers. Having said that, and although the badges are by different makers, I can see what you say about the similarity of construction; with the pins not only being in a similar position, but also finished off in the same way, so as to be more or less be flush with the back of the badge.

I have actually seen another kind of officer’s S&G badge where the pins are left longer and bent over to secure things, sometimes, in fact, being quite long and thin. At present I don’t personally know which would be the earlier of the two, but assume this is a chronological difference and possibly one of a change in production methods? I’m thinking maybe the ones where they are bent over were done by hand, whereas the others with the more rivet-like finish were machine done? Perhaps some more experienced members have better knowledge of this?

As you’ll see I’m attaching my only Gaunt officer’s S&G badge, which is finished in the same way as yours with the pins flush with the back. Mine is also marked ‘P’ as it is silver plated, and, partly because of this, I had always suspected it was later in date, possibly Second World War period. By the way, thank you for opening up a new thread about the north-west versus east-west blade alignment question, and putting up some of your Leicesters OSD badges there as examples, including your lovely new Territorials’ one.

Best regards

Martin
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__________________
From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”
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Old 28-04-13, 05:48 PM
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I refer to them as 'rivets' whether bent over or finished flush. I have early (ie 1896 Patt KLR) with rivets bent over (prob Firmin) and 2nd WW (1926 Patt Ludlow) also bent over. Flush ones of the same sort of dates so I think probably maker's variations but that they became neater in time and only second rate manufacture (eg Ludlow) retaining the bent over style.
I had always associated the P with Gaunt - and I have a couple of 1896 Patt (KLRs) with it (one also maker marked) - but I also have a 1950 Patt (KLR) P marked Firmin !
I think many of us have realised that there are very few 'hard and fast rules' in badge development ! Some areas I thought were chronological turn out to be differing maker's styles of contemporary date.

PS, Dean I suspect your second tiger is theatre made - or even a 2nd WW 'home' produced badge). As an exmple look at this King's S&G badge (please excuse the 'unfinished' photographs). Not only is it a hybrid between two well known variations (my 1926 Types 1 and 2) but fairly crudely made. Now for the evidence - it was attached to a 1939 dated cap made by a well known military tailor so the badge was almost certainly made in the UK !
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Last edited by KLR; 28-04-13 at 06:47 PM.
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  #9  
Old 29-04-13, 08:12 PM
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'Ticker' Riley 'Ticker' Riley is offline
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Default Pins/rivets in S&G badges

Hello Julian

Many thanks for sharing your thoughts on the pin/rivet construction of officers’ S&G badges, and posting the very nice Kings’ example you have with the bent over pins. It was interesting to read how you think some makers, such as Ludski/Ludlow, continued to use the bent over style when other makers had moved onto the neater finish with flush rivets. This would suggest that you think the bent over pins are perhaps an earlier way of fixing, with the more flush finished pins/rivets eventually taking over and being used by the majority of manufacturers? When I said I thought such a change could be chronological, I should have said that it might not necessarily be something that would be adopted by all makers at the same time. Indeed, if we are looking at a change like this, it could be some makers chose to continue to use the older way of fixing for much longer. I did say I don’t know which of the two methods is earlier, but my feeling, and at the moment it is really just that, would be the bent over style was used first, but it might well not be as simple as that!!

As to Dean’s new S&G Leicesters badge from South Africa, I’m afraid I would personally disagree with you about it being a theatre made badge. I can, however, appreciate what you are saying about the way it is finished suggesting something like this, especially given the large gap on the body of the badge behind the bottom title. Then there is the lack of definition on the title scrolls, especially the ‘Hindoostan’, but this could still be just excessive wear. I am actually quite happy that it is more than likely made by one of the main English cap badge makers, and that it is perhaps early twentieth century in date; though maybe not as early as the Boar War. This brings me on to your ‘hybrid’ Kings S&G badge, which really is a lovely example. I am under the impression that one English manufacture in particular appears to have produced officer’s badges of varying quality, at least where Leicestershire Regiment ones are concerned, and this was Jennens & Co. I have seen some of their Leicesters badges which are of a very high quality, but others that have been quite roughly finished by comparison, particularly from the back. It was interesting to me in this respect, therefore, to note that the horse of your ‘hybrid’ S&G is very similar indeed to the “J.R.Gaunt London / Late Jennens” marked OSD and S&G badges in your ‘Kings Regiment (Liverpool) 1926-1950’ album.

Best regards

Martin
__________________
From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 29-04-13 at 08:20 PM.
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